How can green hair algae and dino exist at the same time? danged if I do, danged if I don't

[mell0w]

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0-5
SG: 1.026
Ph: 8.1

Temp: 82 F (this is temporary as I've read people had success with it fighting dinos, usually it's 78 F)

Back story, I set up a 55 gallon with a small bioload (2 clowns, CUC, few corals) and no protein skimmer or macroalgae. I've only been running ChemiPure Blue on a HOB.

My Nitrates have never really been detectable at any meaningful level with my API test kit. At one point, when the tank was much newer my Nitrates were around 15 or so. But after water changes over the last month or so they're practically undetectable. I do no have a Phosphate test kit but plan on getting one.

The problem is I'm getting a ton of GHA popping up everywhere, even on some new dry-rock that I added. Despite virtually 0 detectable Nitrate levels and weekly testing (sometimes even twice a week).

I also noticed what looked like snot popping up in random locations, just a few pieces at a time. They would practically disintegrate with a little brush from the tooth brush, the but hair algae is pretty stuck on the rocks. It seems like they both popped up at the same time. I know the GHA will consume nitrate, which could be keeping my levels so low on the test which makes it possible for the dino to grow. However, the more I think about that, the more it doesn't make sense.. because I scrub the GHA off and it returns, even pops up on new rocks all while the Nitrate levels stay low.

Dinos need low nutrients to thrive, GHA need high, I feel like it's a contradiction that doesn't quite make sense.


I decided I'd like to invest more into the hobby, so I did a full on scrub and 25% water change. There wasn't much dino at all, but what I did find I scrubbed off/sucked up what I could. I got a lot of the GHA as well. I purchased a protein skimmer and some macroalgae that I added to the display tank (no sump/refug yet). And I'm in the process of a three-day blackout. I also bought some GFO (ChemiPure Elite) and I have been dosing Microbacter7 for the last 2 weeks, currently on maintenance dosing.

So I feel, with my current plan, the little dino (it wasn't much at all, again) that I had should be finished off with the three-day blackout and I should have dealt a heavy blow to the GHA as well. I was thinking of doing another water change after the blackout, and adding a bunch of turbo snails (current CUC seems insufficient, LFS sold me on 1 emerald crab and 5 nessarius snails and they seem to do nothing to the algae itself, just uneaten food that hits the floor).

My concern now is with protein skimmer + macroalgae, I will only been further lowering my nutrients. Perhaps GHA will die off, but it seems like the perfect place for dino to come back.

Should I feed more? Add more fish? But then, again, that seems like I'll only be asking the GHA to return.

I also had the thought to carbon dose now that I have a skimmer, as I read dosing carbon allows bacterial colonies to take off and while that will also lower my nutrients even further, perhaps they will outcompete the dino from returning? Since I just completed the 2 weeks of Microbacter7, maybe it would be a good time after the blackout because it will super charge it? I'm not sure.

I feel as though I'm danged if I do, danged if I don't and any advice would be helpful

 

[JohnnyDreadlock]

Dino thrives in ULN systems. When bacteria are outcompeted than cyano, GHA, and Dino can thrive. Best thing to do is is drop phosphate, dose bacteria, and ensure foods aren’t causing pollution. Test nitrate and phosphate than figure out which need to be corrected

 

[Abomb2016]

I struggled with a dino battle for along time. I was dosing all kinds of stuff to no avail. Finally beat them by turning my skimmer down to almost nothing..a very dry skim. I also started making my own fish food with ground up fish/ shrimp/reefroids/nori...whatever else i had kicking around to throw in. Doubled/tripled my feeding, It took a couple months but the dinos slowly died back, and my corals started growing way faster with the higher nutrients. I've fed heavily ever since and the whole tank just seems healthier. I have a halloween urcin that is a cleaning machine, it pretty much takes care of any substantial algae that crops up

 

[SPR1968]

The GHA is probably feeding on raised phosphate levels so you need to look into that and what your using for phosphate export from the system.

When you test you may however get a false low reading because it’s being taken up by the GHA

Personally I use rowaphos for phosphate control, and lots of It and a good target is 0.03ppm or less

I would raise your nitrates to around 5-10 by maybe more fish to try and deal with possible dinos, and also try a 3 day blackout to try and clear any you have, as hopefully a simple fix.

 

[Dan_P]

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0-5
SG: 1.026
Ph: 8.1

Temp: 82 F (this is temporary as I've read people had success with it fighting dinos, usually it's 78 F)

Back story, I set up a 55 gallon with a small bioload (2 clowns, CUC, few corals) and no protein skimmer or macroalgae. I've only been running ChemiPure Blue on a HOB.

My Nitrates have never really been detectable at any meaningful level with my API test kit. At one point, when the tank was much newer my Nitrates were around 15 or so. But after water changes over the last month or so they're practically undetectable. I do no have a Phosphate test kit but plan on getting one.

The problem is I'm getting a ton of GHA popping up everywhere, even on some new dry-rock that I added. Despite virtually 0 detectable Nitrate levels and weekly testing (sometimes even twice a week).

I also noticed what looked like snot popping up in random locations, just a few pieces at a time. They would practically disintegrate with a little brush from the tooth brush, the but hair algae is pretty stuck on the rocks. It seems like they both popped up at the same time. I know the GHA will consume nitrate, which could be keeping my levels so low on the test which makes it possible for the dino to grow. However, the more I think about that, the more it doesn't make sense.. because I scrub the GHA off and it returns, even pops up on new rocks all while the Nitrate levels stay low.

Dinos need low nutrients to thrive, GHA need high, I feel like it's a contradiction that doesn't quite make sense.


I decided I'd like to invest more into the hobby, so I did a full on scrub and 25% water change. There wasn't much dino at all, but what I did find I scrubbed off/sucked up what I could. I got a lot of the GHA as well. I purchased a protein skimmer and some macroalgae that I added to the display tank (no sump/refug yet). And I'm in the process of a three-day blackout. I also bought some GFO (ChemiPure Elite) and I have been dosing Microbacter7 for the last 2 weeks, currently on maintenance dosing.

So I feel, with my current plan, the little dino (it wasn't much at all, again) that I had should be finished off with the three-day blackout and I should have dealt a heavy blow to the GHA as well. I was thinking of doing another water change after the blackout, and adding a bunch of turbo snails (current CUC seems insufficient, LFS sold me on 1 emerald crab and 5 nessarius snails and they seem to do nothing to the algae itself, just uneaten food that hits the floor).

My concern now is with protein skimmer + macroalgae, I will only been further lowering my nutrients. Perhaps GHA will die off, but it seems like the perfect place for dino to come back.

Should I feed more? Add more fish? But then, again, that seems like I'll only be asking the GHA to return.

I also had the thought to carbon dose now that I have a skimmer, as I read dosing carbon allows bacterial colonies to take off and while that will also lower my nutrients even further, perhaps they will outcompete the dino from returning? Since I just completed the 2 weeks of Microbacter7, maybe it would be a good time after the blackout because it will super charge it? I'm not sure.

I feel as though I'm danged if I do, danged if I don't and any advice would be helpful

Additional thoughts.

High light level, warm water and nutrients is definitely a Catch 22 situation. It is perfect nuisance organism growth conditions . And it can take a year or two to sort out the nuisance organism growth issue.

Why isn’t your clean up crewing eating the algae? Not enough? Need a different species? I bought Mexican turbo snails to eat GHA. Not a filament is visible any longer. In fact no macro algae survived. Careful examination with a microscope still reveals GHA filaments here and there. Of course, I have to now feed the snails.

I had no luck with physical removal of GHA to reduce its presence. The act of cleaning rocks and surfaces feels good while waiting but it seems like a totally ineffective method. Mexican turbos were more effective eradicators.

Fighting GHA with nutrient control alone does not seem like a process for the quick elimination of GHA. It can use other nitrogen sources besides NO3. Your feeling of being in a Catch 22 situation is right on when dinoflagellates are around. Add nitrate and phosphate in an attempt to discourage dinoflagellate growth but that feeds GHA! Also, dinoflagellates sometimes associate with GHA!

Maybe consider buying a bunch of snails but have plan to feed them or sell or give away some of them as the GHA subsides. If this is a new system, the aragonite surfaces might still be adsorbing PO4. You can dose PO4 to hasten the process or wait it out. The low nitrate level might just be a result of a low bioload and GHA growth. Again, dose NO3 or wait it out. The odds are, in a few months you will be dealing with high nitrate and phosphate.

 

[92Miata]

I've seen GHA pop up in tanks that have been ULN for a while - the idea that its eating it faster than you can test is sometimes correct - but its often a myth. Just as common in my experience is that its not a water quality issue - but a local nutrient issue.


The problem with GHA is that once it starts - its often able to feed itself when the water is clean - its really good at filtering food out of the water - where it then rots and provides very local nutrients. Often the start is inadequate flow, or just a spot or hole where stuff settles.


I think its important to understand that sometimes these aren't water quality issues - so water changes and the like won't help. Replacing 0 phosphate water with more 0 phosphate water isn't going to change anything. Sometimes it grows because the rock has some phosphate and there's nothing else to outcompete it (biofilm/corraline/coral).


And DanP is right here - you're not going to starve it out - you need something to eat it - and you need to figure out why its growing.


I'm currently fighting some GHA - and its not a water quality/water nutrient issue. I can scrub it all and get a couple of weeks off and none of my parameters move (so its not uptaking it too fast - I'd see a rise while it was gone). What's happening is that the tank is barebottom - and I put all the pumps in with a focus on blowing detritus out from under the rocks to the front - the problem is, there's low flow in the top of the tank, and I tend to get settling on top of some of the rocks - which is exactly where the algae is now. IE - not a water quality issue - but a localized nutrient problem. So I've got some more pumps on the way to blow across the top.

 

[Dan_P]

I've seen GHA pop up in tanks that have been ULN for a while - the idea that its eating it faster than you can test is sometimes correct - but its often a myth. Just as common in my experience is that its not a water quality issue - but a local nutrient issue.

The problem with GHA is that once it starts - its often able to feed itself when the water is clean - its really good at filtering food out of the water - where it then rots and provides very local nutrients. Often the start is inadequate flow, or just a spot or hole where stuff settles.

Yes! @taricha and I have also noticed that GHA is good at gathering particulates from the water. This might be the mechanism for feeding itself, by creating a bacteria farm at its rhizomes.

I think its important to understand that sometimes these aren't water quality issues - so water changes and the like won't help. Replacing 0 phosphate water with more 0 phosphate water isn't going to change anything. Sometimes it grows because the rock has some phosphate and there's nothing else to outcompete it (biofilm/corraline/coral).

Great insight. GHA is not a phantom though. It needs the right amount of nitrogen and phosphorous to do well for the given light conditions. Not enough nitrogen or the light too bright and it will yellow. If it is being fed properly, it is going to grow quickly. The goal is figure out how it is being fed. Look for the nitrogen source. It has to be relatively large for strong growth.

And DanP is right here - you're not going to starve it out - you need something to eat it - and you need to figure out why its growing.

I bought Mexican turbos and they strip the aquarium of all macro algae. I bought 15 (oops!) and now I have the feed them.

I'm currently fighting some GHA - and its not a water quality/water nutrient issue. I can scrub it all and get a couple of weeks off and none of my parameters move (so its not uptaking it too fast - I'd see a rise while it was gone). What's happening is that the tank is barebottom - and I put all the pumps in with a focus on blowing detritus out from under the rocks to the front - the problem is, there's low flow in the top of the tank, and I tend to get settling on top of some of the rocks - which is exactly where the algae is now. IE - not a water quality issue - but a localized nutrient problem. So I've got some more pumps on the way to blow across the top.

When you mechanically remove GHA, the rhizomes stay behind to sprout again. Before obtaining Mexican turbos, I tried scrubbing the heck out my rocks. No good. Examining rock surfaces and even the substrate with a microscope showed rhizomes all over the place.

 

[taricha]

My GHA comes in patches in my tank of two different organizations with seemingly different nutrient strategies. One set grows in moderate to low flow and captures many particles. So much that it can look gray from the amount of detritus that it traps.
There are other patches that seemed to use a totally different strategy of growing in the highest flow where the power head blows it totally clean and it stays dark green. This kind of patch seems to be taking advantage of the really high surface area of the thin strands in order to pull whatever nutrients it can from the water.

In terms of actual advice, I would say be Cleanup Crew the OP mentioned includes almost no herbivores. Just scavengers. Should get some real vigorous herbivores and be patient. Also it's not 100% clear that there are actually dinos. Totally possible but may not be the case.

Herbivores are better than starvation