How do I ID an algae species with a microscope?

[RussC]

People are telling me I need to use a microscope to figure out 1) If I have dinoflagellates algae, and 2) What species dino I have. Okay.

1) How much magnification do I need?
2) Where is a good source to show me pictures of what different species look like under said magnification?
3) Anything else?

 

[Chris Wells]

Following.. It would be really interesting to ID your own algae, not to mention, look at all kinds of things.

 

[RussC]

I potentially have dinoflagellates. I understand that's a bad one. And to top it off, there are different species of that. In order to treat it properly, I need to know the exact species. So, here we are...

 

[Gareth elliott]

If id is just to determine a genus or family 400x -1200x will usually suffice.

To determine species is a mixed bag some species are well documented and studied others not so much. In a lab they may actually do assays, use expensive stains like Calcofluor-white, or Rna sequencing.

 

[brandon429]

wasn't sure of the size of your tank in volume, but there's a neat detail about invasions which runs independent to ID fully

if you have a nano reef its not hard to beat any invader just by cleaning it correctly, whether its amphidinium/ostre/diatoms or cyano or spiru, no matter how strong, a couple true cleaning runs and de clouding the sandbed will work

for large tanks, all other methods apply including no cure at all/start over. Im garnering all this off mass web posts regarding invaded tanks/pattern relaying.

if this is a nano, you could have it beaten even before ID is complete

ID is handy to tie in pics to specifics that's for sure, but in nanos it doesn't change the cure as the cure is pangeneric.

 

[RussC]

As I read, I just saw a picture of Calothrix algae. Wow, very similar looking to what I have in my tank. Down to the bubbles. Now, IDing what it is is even more important. Darn sure don't want to go fighting Dino if I have Cyano. Or vice versa.

Had a bout with Cyano before dino. Cleaned the tank with ChemiClean. Wonderful results. Beautiful white sand. Then this showed up. Wondering now if I have a different strand of cyano?

Quite frankly, when I was looking today, I thought to myself how some parts looked so much like cyano, just brown, not the other colors. There are bush-like algae on my rocks. Matted algae on my substrate. And then the algae with bubbles in it that got me thinking Dino to begin with. But Calothrix does the same thing. And is very very similar in color.

 

[brandon429]

I never got # of gallons/nano

ID isn't required in nano restores, we have giant threads already doing them. ID is only required in large tank rescues, where they're too big to clean out, and you have to tinker with the water for 20 months for anything to occur. I don't agree that's calorthrix, but opinions vary.

ID is a form of hesitation in nano reef restoration, anything that makes the keeper farm the invader another day is the cause of the invasion, not a param or lighting issue, if we're talking nanos.

If its a large tank, then one or more variables like nutrients, flow, lack of N or P, all are said to be causatives. One thing is for sure, after pics of cured tanks range 180 degrees differently on threads that employ cleaning as the cure vs those that use ID and tedious adjustments. I mean we're massively different on outcome..we'll have three nanos cured for every 20 pages of type for large tank works, that big of a difference.

this looks bigger than 30 gallon no?

 

[brandon429]

notice how they don't penetrate down too far into the bed cross section, that means something in strategic planning.
those sand grains are larger than normal, hence this bed has the required fuel in it for all invasions... part of what we do is reverse that, we clean that bed out, killing the invader and removing all the clouding that occurs if you reach in and grab a handful and drop it down.

one of the prime reasons nano/no nano matters, is because most large tankers when using only water-based cure work must leave all their waste/detritus in the sandbed that fuels it. so they kill one invader, import in another next mo, and redo only with a different invader.

the nano that passes a sandbed drop test/bulletproof, we show. resistant to future invasions, chemi clean never makes a tank resistant to even future cyano invasions or spirulina whichever it works on...its only a topical kill/ for true tank restoration, I advocate the true cleaning approach due to the number of tanks collected that ran it. we've been testing the method a long time in the sand rinse thread. your tank would respond for sure if its not too large/cumbersome

 

[Gareth elliott]

That looks like an anthia, hoping its not a nano lol

 

[RussC]

This is a 112 gallon system with about 100 gallons water volume.

 

[RussC]

A good point made...This tank is one year old this month. I never cleaned the substrate. Religiously do water changes every two weeks. But for some reason didn't clean the substrate. That is changing as of my last water change. When I vacuumed this stuff and it came right back the next day. Really didn't expect anything different. And totally agree the substrate is a fertilizer bed of fuel for algae of all kinds. Really surprised at myself that I never vacuumed the bed. But this tank is very low nutrients. Zero on Nitrates. Zero on phosphates. PH about 7.8 though. Can't get it any higher in my house. Would love it to be about 8.2 in a perfect world. Learned Dino love low nutrient tanks. Well, this is a perfect spot. And having never cleaned my substrate, sure, that could fuel cyano. But still, my parameters are all extremely low.

Back to my original goal...ID this stuff.

 

[rkpetersen]

Under a scope, many if not most species of cyanobacteria form long strings or chains of individual cells, while most dinoflagellates are more-or-less ovoid individual free swimming cells with own flagellae that they whip around to get from place to place. Determining which species or even just the genus of cyano or dino that you're dealing with can be much harder. Not impossible though; there are some threads here that have discussed it at length. If you can get a picture of what you see under the scope, that's a big help. You can even get a pretty good shot with a cellphone camera if you are steady.

If it's cyano or mostly cyano, start vacuuming it off the sand whenever you do a water change, and eventually it will stop coming back. Also if you're dosing anything like amino acids, I would stop that, at least temporarily. Just my experience, ymmv.

 

[RussC]

At this point, really what I want is to know if its cyano or dino. That would be a huge first step towards treating it. I've looked at a number of images that I feel confident I would be able to tell the difference. Now, just need a scope!

 

[Gareth elliott]

If have a nitrate and phosphate test, would start there before the scope as brandon suggested. If one is zero its the same cure regardless of which one.

 

[brandon429]

really sharp tank too, I know its sounds like a cheap lateral but the truth is for me, imo, I don't own anything above a nano without a $130 pond UV sterilizer from amazon as a closet cheat to this and many others

those can be bought, evaluated for 25 days and then returned if not wowed. buy bigger next time, its no scheme we're honestly evaluating the best uv to keep on hand, cuz its the ultimate cheat for non penetrating invaders in non nano tanks :)

they don't pull it off the sand, they catch the invader after you've removed every bit of it in a weekend siphon/water change run (without taking apart) as the invader bits left over are circulated. that uv will burn them, for sure its powerful and its a non chem option that never kills nontargets, most other methods other than rip cleans and UV will def stress nontargets and don't give near the certainty on the actual targets. water meds and nutrient tuning, dead last options IMO, as your corals are mighty fine. they're claiming they like the nutrients, current, lighting, feed and every other param water tweaking is about to have us, tweak
B

 

[brandon429]

my vote is spirulina mats. and calothrix on the rocks agreed possible/mixed anchored algae community. For sure you should lift out those rocks and rasp them/peroxide.

 

[ZoWhat]

IMO IME....

the only way to beat this is:
1a) reduce feedings by half to lower no3/po4
1b) reduce your bright white lighting to 4hrs

2) test source water used to mix dry salt mix for po4

3) setup a section of your sump for chaeto. You need for chaeto to be growing to out compete every algae in the tank.

I would SERIOUSLY consider buying a chaeto reactor:

DIY one:
https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=DIY+chaeto+reactor+#

Or buy one:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/mbr127-microalgae-reactor-skimz.html

 

[Sallstrom]

If its a large tank, then one or more variables like nutrients, flow, lack of N or P, all are said to be causatives. One thing is for sure, after pics of cured tanks range 180 degrees differently on threads that employ cleaning as the cure vs those that use ID and tedious adjustments. I mean we're massively different on outcome..we'll have three nanos cured for every 20 pages of type for large tank works, that big of a difference.

You talk about two different things. Yes, cleaning every rock and every sand grain will make the tank look clean afterwards(but for how long?). Adjusting and tuning nutrient levels might take away the reason why you got the cyanobacteria in the first place. You want a quick fix, tuning nutrient levels takes time and patience.

I think what causing the cyanobacteria on the sand in this tank is the lack of nutrients.

/ David

 

[brandon429]

Wasn’t trying to make a derail thread here, was trying to help him produce a clean tank which is what we do, it was a harmless offer for help based on logged practice.


You are now responsible for seeing this tank through to completion in my eyes. I did kick up your other thread too, run two challenges simult even better test of system.

right now you have the ability to put to rest in finality whether or not nutrient only actions, on top of a full detritus complement, can be used to both dislodge the rocks of anchored invader and rid the entire substrate system of an unanchored one. Address the iniquities of my recommend quickly here with better steps to take is my offer.

be sure and stay here until this is complete, all the months until completion you gotta back up that post above. nice poke

 

[Sallstrom]

Wasn’t trying to make a derail thread here, was trying to help him produce a clean tank which is what we do, it was a harmless offer for help based on logged practice.


You are now responsible for seeing this tank through to completion in my eyes. I did kick up your other thread too, run two challenges simult even better test of system.

right now you have the ability to put to rest in finality whether or not nutrient only actions, on top of a full detritus complement, can be used to both dislodge the rocks of anchored invader and rid the entire substrate system of an unanchored one. Address the iniquities of my recommend quickly here with better steps to take is my offer.

be sure and stay here until this is complete, all the months until completion you gotta back up that post above. nice poke

Like I have told you before, this is not a competition. But you wrote it like "nutrient tuning is not working" so therefor I answered.

I'm fine with giving my thoughts on a problem, but it's all up to the aquarist running the tank to figure out a husbandry that work for her/him. I'm not here to take over another persons tank. If they find my thoughts reasonably they might search for more info on the subject or ask. If not, that's fine. I'm not "responsible for seeing this tank though to completion ... " :)

What I find interesting is to find a long term husbandry. Cleaning a rock or some sand is fine, but how do I avoid the Cyanobacteria to come back?