How long for dry rock to function like live ocean rock

[Brandon McHenry]

Hello all! With all of the threads I’ve seen lately about struggling SPS tanks and discussions of dry rock vs live rock I wanted to get the community’s opinion on something. How long do you think it takes for man-made dry rock (CaribSea, Marco Rocks, Real Reef, etc.) to function the same as live rock from the ocean (KP Aquatics, Tampa Bay Saltwater, boat rock, etc.)? When I say function I mean biologically, and more than just the nitrogen cycle. I’ve seen many people state that dry rock does not provide all of the important micro- and macro- fauna and flora that are key in having a successful SPS tank. So what are your thoughts? How long does it take for dry rock to act the same as a piece of ocean rock? Does it ever? If so, what steps do you think are necessary to make dry rock act like live rock? Vote in the poll and comment your thoughts below because I’m curious after seeing so much about it lately and maybe this can be a resource for people who are struggling and wondering if their rock is mature enough.

 

[andrewey]

For me, I would change the question a bit. If I were to put dry rock in a vat with some bacteria in a bottle, it would cycle and whatever spores were on it would start to grow, however it would never replicate the rock that's coming out of the ocean. This much is obvious.

So in order to populate it with all the life we're looking for, we're going to need to seed it with these organisms somehow. Therefore, I don't think time is necessarily the best measure -although it's very important as even dry rock placed next to live rock needs time to seed and reach an equilibrium with all the microfauna. Therefore, I think it might be better to ask how much time plus what steps are necessary in order to seed dry rock to mimic live rock from the ocean. Just my 2 cents.

 

[stephj03]

Without installing a bacterial driven system like Zeo, at least 1yr.

 

[dbowman5]

Given the truth of Andrewey's comments, i will opine that if you combine ocean rock with dry rock the dry rock will become home to the excess population of fauna and flora that is in the live rock in a very short period. beneficial bacteria will lodge wherever it can and algae will cover any surface available. once this occurs the larger, more complex organisms will follow.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

For me, I would change the question a bit. If I were to put dry rock in a vat with some bacteria in a bottle, it would cycle and whatever spores were on it would start to grow, however it would never replicate the rock that's coming out of the ocean. This much is obvious.

So in order to populate it with all the life we're looking for, we're going to need to seed it with these organisms somehow. Therefore, I don't think time is necessarily the best measure -although it's very important as even dry rock placed next to live rock needs time to seed and reach an equilibrium with all the microfauna. Therefore, I think it might be better to ask how much time plus what steps are necessary in order to seed dry rock to mimic live rock from the ocean. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the suggestion! I made that change to my original post. It is a very good point that a source needs to be added whether it be Ocean rock, frags/corals, algae etc.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Keep the thoughts and votes coming!

 

[2Sunny]

For me, I would change the question a bit. If I were to put dry rock in a vat with some bacteria in a bottle, it would cycle and whatever spores were on it would start to grow, however it would never replicate the rock that's coming out of the ocean. This much is obvious.

So in order to populate it with all the life we're looking for, we're going to need to seed it with these organisms somehow. Therefore, I don't think time is necessarily the best measure -although it's very important as even dry rock placed next to live rock needs time to seed and reach an equilibrium with all the microfauna. Therefore, I think it might be better to ask how much time plus what steps are necessary in order to seed dry rock to mimic live rock from the ocean. Just my 2 cents.

Borrowed this from Ron Reefman, but I like it

 

[Brandon McHenry]

For the people who vote, it would be really helpful if you post with why you picked that timeframe and what you think it takes to achieve it.

 

[andrewey]

I voted 2 years as a crude approximation. At the macro level, six months still looks like colorful base rock and one year doesn't have the density of sponges, mollusks, or feather dusters I associate with the classic transhipped live rock. At two years, it's still not the same, but under the microscope, I see smaller and smaller changes in the diversity and density of life after around the 24-30 month mark.

 

[hobbyreefer]

I'm struggling to keep SPS and like the OP stated almost every solution received on this forum is around dry rock is missing bacteria, start with live rock, etc. My opinion is, yes, starting with mature live rock is probably very helpful. HOWEVER, I don't understand how some people start with all dry rock and have great acropora success.

Coral Eurphoira just posted a YouTube video showing his frag system. He mentioned in the video and in the comments that the tank started with all dry rock and no bacteria additives. I'm not an expert, but his coral looks awesome to me.



Robert s b. has a 450g build thread on here - he started this tank with dry rock and has had amazing acropora growth in the first year - he does claim to use Miracle Mud

Monster Build - Rob's 450g Build Thread!

Finally tore my 300g Deep Dimensions down to make way for my 450g. Heres a link to my 300. https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/r2r-reef-of-the-month-spotlight-robs-300g-deep-dimension-january-2018.392/ It was tough tearing it down, but I'm looking forward to the new canvas I have and see what I can...

www.reef2reef.com

I believe the BRS 750 XXL tank was started with all dry rock. Their 1 year update looked successful in my opinion (coloration, encrusting corals, etc).

What makes some folks successful with dry rock, limited bacteria, etc. and most others really struggle?

I'm going to vote Less than 6 months based on the examples cited above, but my gut tells me it's MUCH longer...

 

[andrewey]

@hobbyreefer, Starting with dry rock vs live rock vs wild collected rock all have their own pros/cons. I think it's always a bit too simplistic to blame the success or failure of a tank on a single parameter. Rather, a successful or unsuccessful tank can be made by using any of the three- as long as the total environment provides for the needs of the organism and is balanced, success often follows.

 

[User1]

It is actually a bit more complicated. Also TBS and KP are not the same due to how they are shipped. TBS is by far the best rock to purchase and arrive alive 100% due to 24 hour or less air freight and fully submerged. KP I believe is wrapped in newspaper or shipped partial water and therefor has a higher potential for die off. Both are great rocks though just different.

Back to the question though it is subjective because, well, cycle complete != coral ready. Furthermore it does not mean it is ready to merge / upgrade tanks. Since the question asked was:

How long for dry rock to function like live ocean rock

Simple answer is about 2 years give or take. A lot of it depends on how much rock are we talking about. Having just gone through this process I will say I answered 2 years based on my experience with 150 lbs of dry Pukani rock. This means that I can take any piece of the rock in my tank, turn it 90 degrees, and see the same rock as it was before I moved it. Meaning coralline algae or some other form of "non moon base white sterile rock". It has color, growth, or something on it other than what it was when I purchased it.

Also tp put this into perspective TBS and KP both add dry rock and let it age. It isn't a week, month, or year. Our tanks are no different and the process isn't able to be accelerated even using seed sand/rock.

Mother Nature takes time. Try and rush her and she will let you know.

 

[slojim]

I put 3 years - all I really know is that at 6 months, there is a stark difference between the rocks I bought from inside a reef tank and the dead rock - so maybe it is never. As recently as a few weeks ago, I still found something new on a relatively small "live rock". The highly mobile organisms like serpent stars and stomatellas are all over the place of course. (and the aptasia...)
Coming back into this after a lengthy break - that diversity was an issue for me. I expected to go to the LFS and buy some real live rock - but as most of you know, that isn't so easy anymore. And I just haven't been able to convince myself to pull the trigger on air-freighting some.

 

[ycnibrc]

Here is what I observed on my system. I had sps reef tank will real live rock in the 90 and now i have dry rock tank with zeovit. On the reef tank with real live rock the system mature faster which mean i can sustain sps after 6 months or so.
With my current sps tank with zeovit now the first 6 months is tough and after 1 years is when i can see the tank stabilize and growth start taking off.
The different between the 2 tank
with zeovit all i have is to dose and maintain parameters i dont do water change.
With the old reef tank i have to do water change since there are not much additive to dose back then.
The growth between the 2 tank is no comparison the newer tank with better light, flow and better equipment grow much faster.
I start my tank 3 years and 3 months ago.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I voted 2 years as a crude approximation. At the macro level, six months still looks like colorful base rock and one year doesn't have the density of sponges, mollusks, or feather dusters I associate with the classic transhipped live rock. At two years, it's still not the same, but under the microscope, I see smaller and smaller changes in the diversity and density of life after around the 24-30 month mark.

Great explanation behind your reasoning. I assume this is with seeding the tank with ocean rock?

I'm struggling to keep SPS and like the OP stated almost every solution received on this forum is around dry rock is missing bacteria, start with live rock, etc. My opinion is, yes, starting with mature live rock is probably very helpful. HOWEVER, I don't understand how some people start with all dry rock and have great acropora success.

Coral Eurphoira just posted a YouTube video showing his frag system. He mentioned in the video and in the comments that the tank started with all dry rock and no bacteria additives. I'm not an expert, but his coral looks awesome to me.



Robert s b. has a 450g build thread on here - he started this tank with dry rock and has had amazing acropora growth in the first year - he does claim to use Miracle Mud

Monster Build - Rob's 450g Build Thread!

Finally tore my 300g Deep Dimensions down to make way for my 450g. Heres a link to my 300. https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/r2r-reef-of-the-month-spotlight-robs-300g-deep-dimension-january-2018.392/ It was tough tearing it down, but I'm looking forward to the new canvas I have and see what I can...

www.reef2reef.com

I believe the BRS 750 XXL tank was started with all dry rock. Their 1 year update looked successful in my opinion (coloration, encrusting corals, etc).

What makes some folks successful with dry rock, limited bacteria, etc. and most others really struggle?

I'm going to vote Less than 6 months based on the examples cited above, but my gut tells me it's MUCH longer...

@hobbyreefer, Starting with dry rock vs live rock vs wild collected rock all have their own pros/cons. I think it's always a bit too simplistic to blame the success or failure of a tank on a single parameter. Rather, a successful or unsuccessful tank can be made by using any of the three- as long as the total environment provides for the needs of the organism and is balanced, success often follows.

I agree it’s definitely not just one thing when it comes to reef tank success. Rock is only one part (although it is a big part) of the equation. From my experience it’s usually just an easier path to success when you begin a tank with live rock.

It is actually a bit more complicated. Also TBS and KP are not the same due to how they are shipped. TBS is by far the best rock to purchase and arrive alive 100% due to 24 hour or less air freight and fully submerged. KP I believe is wrapped in newspaper or shipped partial water and therefor has a higher potential for die off. Both are great rocks though just different.

Back to the question though it is subjective because, well, cycle complete != coral ready. Furthermore it does not mean it is ready to merge / upgrade tanks. Since the question asked was:

How long for dry rock to function like live ocean rock

Simple answer is about 2 years give or take. A lot of it depends on how much rock are we talking about. Having just gone through this process I will say I answered 2 years based on my experience with 150 lbs of dry Pukani rock. This means that I can take any piece of the rock in my tank, turn it 90 degrees, and see the same rock as it was before I moved it. Meaning coralline algae or some other form of "non moon base white sterile rock". It has color, growth, or something on it other than what it was when I purchased it.

Also tp put this into perspective TBS and KP both add dry rock and let it age. It isn't a week, month, or year. Our tanks are no different and the process isn't able to be accelerated even using seed sand/rock.

Mother Nature takes time. Try and rush her and she will let you know.

I put 3 years - all I really know is that at 6 months, there is a stark difference between the rocks I bought from inside a reef tank and the dead rock - so maybe it is never. As recently as a few weeks ago, I still found something new on a relatively small "live rock". The highly mobile organisms like serpent stars and stomatellas are all over the place of course. (and the aptasia...)
Coming back into this after a lengthy break - that diversity was an issue for me. I expected to go to the LFS and buy some real live rock - but as most of you know, that isn't so easy anymore. And I just haven't been able to convince myself to pull the trigger on air-freighting some.

I agree that there is definitely a difference between cycled rock (able to handle the nitrogen cycle) and diversity within the rock (sponges, tunicates, worms, pods etc.) I can see how it takes at least two years to take a rock from a barren environment to a rock teeming with life! Thanks for your explanations behind your answers!

Here is what I observed on my system. I had sps reef tank will real live rock in the 90 and now i have dry rock tank with zeovit. On the reef tank with real live rock the system mature faster which mean i can sustain sps after 6 months or so.
With my current sps tank with zeovit now the first 6 months is tough and after 1 years is when i can see the tank stabilize and growth start taking off.
The different between the 2 tank
with zeovit all i have is to dose and maintain parameters i dont do water change.
With the old reef tank i have to do water change since there are not much additive to dose back then.
The growth between the 2 tank is no comparison the newer tank with better light, flow and better equipment grow much faster.
I start my tank 3 years and 3 months ago.

So you would say 1 year with zeovit? Great tank by the way!

 

[ycnibrc]

Great explanation behind your reasoning. I assume this is with seeding the tank with ocean rock?




I agree it’s definitely not just one thing when it comes to reef tank success. Rock is only one part (although it is a big part) of the equation. From my experience it’s usually just an easier path to success when you begin a tank with live rock.




I agree that there is definitely a difference between cycled rock (able to handle the nitrogen cycle) and diversity within the rock (sponges, tunicates, worms, pods etc.) I can see how it takes at least two years to take a rock from a barren environment to a rock teeming with life! Thanks for your explanations behind your answers!



So you would say 1 year with zeovit? Great tank by the way!

It can be with any bacteria source method on the market like aqua forest, fauna marin , red sea Zeo ect..... with bacteria dosing it take a little longer for the population to populate and mature. With live rock since the initial abundance of bacteria it will populate faster.

 

[jda]

Bacteria in a bottle is the least of concern. You can get most of these bacteria from the digestive systems of fish early in a tank life, so all that the bottle does is speed you up by a week or two.

It is all kinds of pods, worms, sponges, cryptic sponges, starfish, etc. that are what is missing. Hard to get any of this without real live rock or a call to Indo Pacific Sea Farms.

...so I am going with never since most people do not even know that there is more to this than bacteria.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Bacteria in a bottle is the least of concern. You can get most of these bacteria from the digestive systems of fish early in a tank life, so all that the bottle does is speed you up by a week or two.

It is all kinds of pods, worms, sponges, cryptic sponges, starfish, etc. that are what is missing. Hard to get any of this without real live rock or a call to Indo Pacific Sea Farms.

...so I am going with never since most people do not even know that there is more to this than bacteria.

I was just wondering what the thoughts were of the people that voted never. I definitely agree that the take home here should be more than just nitrogen cycling bacteria. All of the micro- and macro- fauna and flora play a huge role in the benefits of live rock. So with that said, do you feel that there is a reasonable way to introduce all of the beneficial organisms to a dry rock tank in a manner that would one day turn dry rock into rock that is “functionally similar” to ocean rock? Or do you think there is no substitute?

 

[MabuyaQ]

I voted never. Simply because as soon as those rocks are taken out of the ocean and transferred into the aquarium the entire ecosystem within those rocks starts to changee. Just as the ecosystem of the dead rock starts to change and they gradually become more and more alive. After a year or two you won't see a difference anymore, but neither will be the same (as diverse) as the original life rock introduced from the ocean.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I voted never. Simply because as soon as those rocks are taken out of the ocean and transferred into the aquarium the entire ecosystem within those rocks starts to changee. Just as the ecosystem of the dead rock starts to change and they gradually become more and more alive. After a year or two you won't see a difference anymore, but neither will be the same (as diverse) as the original life rock introduced from the ocean.

So you believe that live rock from the ocean and dry rock will eventually function the same and have the same life in a reef tank after about two years?