How low of ph becomes a concern?

[Scott.h]

Long story short.. 2 month old system cycled. A few frags, no fish yet. Michigan, so house is closed up. Alk is 8.9, salt 1026. Both a little higher then I'd like, but trying to get the ph up. Watching my lab grade probe, it was running 7.8, ..never has reached 8.0. Yesterday I plumbed a 3/8 inside diameter hose (9 feet length) to the outside for fresh air to the skimmer inlet not choked down. So the last 2 days to current it's still been 7.72 to 7.78. I'm sure it will take a few days to get going. The only other thing I can do it build a co2 scrubber, but the media is more then I want to spend monthly.

So is 7.7 something to worry about? I know adding more corals will raise it, but I'm wanting to add a few hundred worth of stuff this week.

 

[MaiReef]

7.7 is low. you really want 7.8 minimum, but it also depends on what is in your tank.

 

[Scott.h]

I'm wondering how much has to do with the kind of salt. Although I never used a probe before either. I know we like to see 7.8, but it 7.7 the number that starts to mean death? I've never regularly skirted this low before. I'm hesitant to add more stuff.

Also for those that run a fresh air line to the skimmer how long did it take to see results?

 

[G8trBait16]

My alk stays around 7.4-7.5. I built a CO2 scrubber out of a Gatorade bottle some tubing going to the air intake of my skimmer and soda lime granules. I spend $9 a month on the soda lime (http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/soda-lime-3-lb-bag) or you can get the 5 gallon (http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/soda-lime-5-gallon-JOR553B). Now my PH is 8.20 at night and 8.5 during the day. Hope this helps.

 

[Scott.h]

My alk stays around 7.4-7.5. I built a CO2 scrubber out of a Gatorade bottle some tubing going to the air intake of my skimmer and soda lime granules. I spend $9 a month on the soda lime (http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/soda-lime-3-lb-bag) or you can get the 5 gallon (http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/soda-lime-5-gallon-JOR553B). Now my PH is 8.20 at night and 8.5 during the day. Hope this helps.

That's cheaper then buying it from BRS. I was trying to avoid one more thing to have to deal with, make room for, and have monthly maintenance. I'll go that route if I have to though. Thanks for the link to the cheaper media!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As the pH gets lower and lower, it becomes harder for corals to calcify. We don't really have good data on where all the creatures we keep begin to suffer, but below pH 7.8 is where I'd try to do something about it.

 

[Scott.h]

As the pH gets lower and lower, it becomes harder for corals to calcify. We don't really have good data on where all the creatures we keep begin to suffer, but below pH 7.8 is where I'd try to do something about it.

Could the salt brand play any kind of a roll in this? I used to use reef crystals and ph was always over 8. Ever since I switched to tropic Marin it's below 8. Granted the time of year and I used to test with API vs salifert, and now one of my tanks has a probe.
The thing is, I have two tanks inside. I plumbed both skimmers to the outside Sunday morning. I'm still 7.78 today via apex on my one tank. Last night I did a salifert test on both tanks to compare. Color charts are hard to read but they were both the same color none the less. So I'm ruling out the kind of skimmers, length of the hose. Now wondering if it's related to how much air the skimmer can import in relation to how hard my furnace is working right now. So if I buy a reactor and use soda media vs the outside air, is it going to change anything? What would you do?

 

[MaiReef]

switch to a different salt? My pH is better with AF reef after I switched from Reef Crystals, but I think it is more related to the Kalkwasser stirrer I added. I was 7.8 and with the Salt and Kalkwasser and additional light in my refugium I am at 8.1.

 

[Scott.h]

switch to a different salt? My pH is better with AF reef after I switched from Reef Crystals, but I think it is more related to the Kalkwasser stirrer I added. I was 7.8 and with the Salt and Kalkwasser and additional light in my refugium I am at 8.1.

I will if I need to. I've just never delt with this. Or didn't pay close enough attention. Thats why I'm wondering. I have a dos too so I quit messing with Kalk. With little in the tank using up alk, I'm not sure the little amount of Kalk making up for precipitation would matter anyway. I thought about pulling macroalgae from my other fuge, but with the color charts the same it obviously isn't making a difference. Then I don't have enough nutrients to sustain it either.

 

[Jason mack]

Long story short.. 2 month old system cycled. A few frags, no fish yet. Michigan, so house is closed up. Alk is 8.9, salt 1026. Both a little higher then I'd like, but trying to get the ph up. Watching my lab grade probe, it was running 7.8, ..never has reached 8.0. Yesterday I plumbed a 3/8 inside diameter hose (9 feet length) to the outside for fresh air to the skimmer inlet not choked down. So the last 2 days to current it's still been 7.72 to 7.78. I'm sure it will take a few days to get going. The only other thing I can do it build a co2 scrubber, but the media is more then I want to spend monthly.

So is 7.7 something to worry about? I know adding more corals will raise it, but I'm wanting to add a few hundred worth of stuff this week.

Have you tried opening a window and letting fresh air in .. this will also help raise your ph .. is there a lot of activity/ people in the room where your tank is .. could just be a build up of co2 in the room.. here in holland it's winter so windows closed heating on .. and ph will drop a little more than normal

 

[Jason mack]

I'm wondering how much has to do with the kind of salt. Although I never used a probe before either. I know we like to see 7.8, but it 7.7 the number that starts to mean death? I've never regularly skirted this low before. I'm hesitant to add more stuff.

Also for those that run a fresh air line to the skimmer how long did it take to see results?

With a fresh air line you can expect too see results in a couple of hrs

 

[Scott.h]

Have you tried opening a window and letting fresh air in .. this will also help raise your ph .. is there a lot of activity/ people in the room where your tank is .. could just be a build up of co2 in the room.. here in holland it's winter so windows closed heating on .. and ph will drop a little more than normal

its about -10C out. Can't. That's why I ran the air line Sunday.

 

[Scott.h]

Researching salts TM says the pro reef is specifically designed for CA reactors and kalk. First I've read of that but I don't use either. So that might be contributing? I ordered some TM bio actif. I'm confused if that salt is supposed to take the place of carbon dosing or used in conjunction with. I can't find info anywhere explaining.

 

[GoVols]

I agree a low alk salt mix like TMPR can cause low ph if you don't dose up alk while mixing. They say the "calcuim reactor" for TMPR thing because calcium reactors give off low alk if it's not a dual unit that gasses off the extra c02.

Here's you a Randy link.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

 

[GoVols]

I agree a low alk salt mix like TMPR can cause low ph if you don't dose up alk while mixing. They say the "calcuim reactor" for TMPR thing because calcium reactors give off low alk if it's not a dual unit that gasses off the extra c02.

Here's you a Randy link.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

The TMbioactiff only has slightly more alk than TMPR but it might make your difference up.

 

[Scott.h]

A week later I'm really struggling with this. Today it reached an all time low of 7.70. Over the last few days it's been warmer so my furnace hasn't had to work as hard indoors. Around 30 degrees. I removed my glass lid, added macroalgae and a fuge light to the sump (even through I don't expect it to survive yet because nitrates and phosphates test zero.. Spot feeding corals 3x a week), increased my flow of the mp40s to make sure there are no dead spots. I'm going to increase the hose diameter to the skimmer from 3/8" to maybe 1/2", or larger today. It's a oversized skimmer. This should be the ticket, but apparently not so.

At this point I can't see a soda reactor to my skimmer intake doing any more then a big outside air line would.

My dkh was 8.8 this morning.. Still higher then I'd like.

At this point I'm really wondering if salt plays a roll. I bought another kind within the same brand, contemplating a big water change, although my parameters are spot on minus ph, and I can't see a reason for it. I'm also ordering another ph calibration solution, although salifert confirms it has to be close.

I'm at a loss, if anyone has a better idea..

 

[rizorido]

A week later I'm really struggling with this. Today it reached an all time low of 7.70. Over the last few days it's been warmer so my furnace hasn't had to work as hard indoors. Around 30 degrees. I removed my glass lid, added macroalgae and a fuge light to the sump (even through I don't expect it to survive yet because nitrates and phosphates test zero.. Spot feeding corals 3x a week), increased my flow of the mp40s to make sure there are no dead spots. I'm going to increase the hose diameter to the skimmer from 3/8" to maybe 1/2", or larger today. It's a oversized skimmer. This should be the ticket, but apparently not so.

At this point I can't see a soda reactor to my skimmer intake doing any more then a big outside air line would.

My dkh was 8.8 this morning.. Still higher then I'd like.

At this point I'm really wondering if salt plays a roll. I bought another kind within the same brand, contemplating a big water change, although my parameters are spot on minus ph, and I can't see a reason for it. I'm also ordering another ph calibration solution, although salifert confirms it has to be close.

I'm at a loss, if anyone has a better idea..

Reducing livestock is s way to increase ph, but that's easier said than done !

 

[Scott.h]

Reducing livestock is s way to increase ph, but that's easier said than done !

The tank is only a few months old. 90 DT and 70 sump. It has a few corals, a Handful of frags, a Golby, cleaner shrimp, hermet crab.

 

[Shameless_Dood]

I would start looking for other causes, but to be sure, take a couple cups of your tank water and aerate it with an air pump outside for a couple hours. If the PH goes up then it's definitely indoor air related. I would think the outside line would have done the trick if this was the issue. Is the outside portion of that line near a dryer vent or air vent from the house? If that's the case you may just still be pulling inside air. Maybe the probe is faulty?

Your tank is still very young...maybe you're still having some die off in your rock? I know people say 30 days for a cycle, but I think it takes longer than that to have a nice stable equilibrium of bacteria. I'd run an ammonia test...maybe it's not exactly zero.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Scott.h]

I would start looking for other causes, but to be sure, take a couple cups of your tank water and aerate it with an air pump outside for a couple hours. If the PH goes up then it's definitely indoor air related. I would think the outside line would have done the trick if this was the issue. Is the outside portion of that line near a dryer vent or air vent from the house? If that's the case you may just still be pulling inside air. Maybe the probe is faulty?

Your tank is still very young...maybe you're still having some die off in your rock? I know people say 30 days for a cycle, but I think it takes longer than that to have a nice stable equilibrium of bacteria. I'd run an ammonia test...maybe it's not exactly zero.

Just some thoughts.

You've made a couple of really good points. Ironically yes the outside line is about 14" away from the dryer vent. But I have to rule that out because we don't do laundry during the week. I haven't seen a change in ph during the week. The second tank is on the opposite side of the house, and wouldn't be effected.

There absolutely could be some dead rock decay. I did let the tank run for two months with some used water letting the ORP go from 160 to stabilizing at 400 before adding mature live rock and seasoned media to the sump a month ago. There could still be further breakdown though. Either from the live rock or media added. Ironically this is when my pH started to dip below 7.8 also.

This morning I exchanged the 3/8" inside diameter line to a 5/8" inside diameter line. I also shortend up the distance a little bit. It appears by the apex graph that at 11' it needed a bigger line, so improvement so far.

So I did what you said, and bubbled a pitcher of water outside. I did a comparison test. In order left to right:

freshly mixed saltwater,
newly set up tank,
old mature overstocked tank,
outside bubbled water

The newly mix salt water and my mature tank are exactly the same color, with my new tank set up being very slightly more elevated. So even the salt bucket inside sealed will absorb the carbon dioxide.

I took that outside picture of water and stuck my ph probe in it. 8.02

I have to conclude although the pH level in the salt is it none too impressive at 8 flat, it's still carbon dioxide that's playing the problem role.