How many fish?
- Thread starter Vassal of Ulmo
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twentyleagues
Valuable Member
Chromis are typically a bad choice overall. They are aggressive and can sometimes come in with disease, as others have said. I had luck with Talbots damsels and springeri(sp?) in the past staying in groups and not murdering each other or other fish.
Most dartfish will pair up and the lonely ones/one will die. I currently have 4 scissor tail dartfish 2 from one add and 2 I just added the 2 new ones were accepted by the other 2 almost immediately. Its fun to watch them frolic. Zebra dartfish will also "school" and get along well with others of their species. You will need a top on the tank for sure. Mixing firefish didnt go well for me either. I have kept most of the popular ones, of them only ones I have not personally kept is the zebra, I had a friend that had 10 in a 125 for a few years. I have had 2 pairs of the standard reds, a purple, and a pair of helfrichi and now my 4 scissortails. The scissortails stay near the top 1/3 of the tank for most of the day may be a good choice for movement in the open water. Most others dont venture far from their hole.
Anthias are typically a little harder to keep and feed and keep well fed. I tried the lyretails they eventually killed each other in my case. I tried twice, as soon as one turned into a male it was constant fighting. I have not tried others of the species.
Wrasses are great. But I would not get groups of them they dont always do well with conspecifics or others that look enough like one. I am not great with the names of the ones I have kept but I had a 120 that was mostly wrasses about 15 of them. I believe most were fairy wrasses, I had a few flasher wrasses, and 2 leopard wrasses by accident, thought I lost one then when I added the other it popped up from the sand about a month after it went missing. I had a 6 line for a couple weeks and it lived up to its reputation.
Most dartfish will pair up and the lonely ones/one will die. I currently have 4 scissor tail dartfish 2 from one add and 2 I just added the 2 new ones were accepted by the other 2 almost immediately. Its fun to watch them frolic. Zebra dartfish will also "school" and get along well with others of their species. You will need a top on the tank for sure. Mixing firefish didnt go well for me either. I have kept most of the popular ones, of them only ones I have not personally kept is the zebra, I had a friend that had 10 in a 125 for a few years. I have had 2 pairs of the standard reds, a purple, and a pair of helfrichi and now my 4 scissortails. The scissortails stay near the top 1/3 of the tank for most of the day may be a good choice for movement in the open water. Most others dont venture far from their hole.
Anthias are typically a little harder to keep and feed and keep well fed. I tried the lyretails they eventually killed each other in my case. I tried twice, as soon as one turned into a male it was constant fighting. I have not tried others of the species.
Wrasses are great. But I would not get groups of them they dont always do well with conspecifics or others that look enough like one. I am not great with the names of the ones I have kept but I had a 120 that was mostly wrasses about 15 of them. I believe most were fairy wrasses, I had a few flasher wrasses, and 2 leopard wrasses by accident, thought I lost one then when I added the other it popped up from the sand about a month after it went missing. I had a 6 line for a couple weeks and it lived up to its reputation.
LPS Bum
Well-Known Member
As mentioned above, the inches per gallon thing is useless. It's really about territories and filtration. If you have the filtration to keep up with the bio load, and enough rock and caves to thwart aggression, then your system can likely handle it. A 120 can easily support multiple Zebrasoma tangs and a single Acanthurus powder tang, provided they are added at the same time and have enough rock and caves to carve out their own territories.
Joe.D
Active Member
I’m not an expert - I’m only 2 years into my reefing journey. But, here are my thoughts.
I have a 75 gallon display that’s 48” long. Looking at different fish requirements, at 125 gallons, your options really increase - so, good that you’re thinking 120, but would a 60” long work? I ask as I’ve seen some 125 gallons 60” long and that may be better for more fish for more swimming room. Not sure the vertical or width matters as much.
As far as your stocking list, you should be able to add more - I have similar fish in my 75. I have a White Tail Kole Tang, One Spot Foxface, 1 Oscelaris Clown, 1 Da Vinci Extreme Clown, a Solar Wrasse (my favorite - beautiful colors, curious, moves around), 2 Bangaii Cardinals, a Tuxedo Urchin and a Rainbow BTA.
I went through 2 Diamond Gobies (not at the same time) - they were harassed to death by the Tang. Another fish with great personality and keeps your sand clean. Wait a year or so for your tank to mature so there’s enough stuff in your sand for them to munch on.
So, what have I learned? What would I do differently?
I would not do Cardinals. Frankly, I find them kind of boring. They don’t do much and their colors aren’t striking. I bought them because they reminded me of freshwater angels I had as a kid.
I’d do more wrasses. I love my solar. Looking at adding a melanarus. But with the size tank you’re looking at, you have options. They have great colors and are really fun fish. Plenty of wrasse fans here can guide you on compatibility and order to add them.
As for clowns, some people wish they never added them - I like mine, though they do hang out in the back of the tank. I wanted a Nemo, but I wanted something different too. You don’t have to do the same for them to pair. My Da Vinci is the male. I hear the maroons are quite mean however.
I would not add a BTA again. Why? Mine moves every so often, which they are prone to do. I’m just tired of clearing corals from its path. It took out 2 torches and a Duncan when I didn’t move them quickly enough. Not happy. No more nems for me.
The urchin is new - only had him for about a week. Doing a great job on my green hair algae. Today I laughed as he was going around with a couple of small shells and rocks attached.
Ok - sorry, this is getting long.
Maybe I’d think differently in a larger tank, but not sure I’d do a Tang. Mine is pretty, and the most expensive fish in the tank, but he’s kind of a jerk too.
Is am thinking of adding a marine betta. Cool fish! Someone else mentioned one too.
Last bit of advice. Let your stocking list evolve. As you gain knowledge, you may go in a different direction. Take your time so your thoughts can evolve. Or you may find, as I have, that it’s really about the corals. The colors, the movement (I love torches). It’s an addiction.
Good luck to you!
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tuscani
Active Member
Well now I feel way overstocked after reading this 
Red Sea Reefer 250 G2+ System (54 Gal Display, 11 Gal Sump)
1 - Flame Angelfish
1 - Mandarin Dragonet
1 - Yellow Tang
1 - Tomini Tang
1 - Gold Midas Blenny
1 - Diamond Goby
1 - Filefish
1 - Lawnmower Blenny
2 - Banggai Cardinalfish
2 - Orange Storm Clown Fish
However, my bio-load and parameters are fine and no signs of aggression. I have lots of rock work to.
Red Sea Reefer 250 G2+ System (54 Gal Display, 11 Gal Sump)
1 - Flame Angelfish
1 - Mandarin Dragonet
1 - Yellow Tang
1 - Tomini Tang
1 - Gold Midas Blenny
1 - Diamond Goby
1 - Filefish
1 - Lawnmower Blenny
2 - Banggai Cardinalfish
2 - Orange Storm Clown Fish
However, my bio-load and parameters are fine and no signs of aggression. I have lots of rock work to.
Naekuh
Well-Known Member
oh man... im surprised the Tang's haven't flipped out on each other in a tank that small.
My tomini declared a 150g as its own, and killed a blue baby hippo, and harrassed the living hell out a small foxface, until i made it go time out for a bit.
My tomini declared a 150g as its own, and killed a blue baby hippo, and harrassed the living hell out a small foxface, until i made it go time out for a bit.
tuscani
Active Member
Funny you mention that... the Tomini was a jerk to the new flame angel the first few days. I had to use a mirror and QT him. All good now.
I know I will need to rehome this yellow eventually as well.
4" chubby fish greater biomass than 4 1" skinny fish. I'd rather consider how much food introduced to maintain said fish as that's what's being processed by the system along with expected oxygen demands by all those fish. Factors which can't be easily predicted in a home aquarium although there are formulas online for aquaculture and yet those are based on cramp conditions where food production the focus and not having an aesthetically please display. Perhaps public aquariums have figured this out since they tend to feed just what the residents need yet by comparison their tanks will never see the crowding we do. If it seems logical then cut it in half because that logic probably overzealous in an attempt to keep every new arrival at the LFS.
OP
OP
Vassal of Ulmo
New Member
Keeping all of those large, beautiful fish in a 4' 120 gal would certainly be a dream come true. But I'd take some convincing before I agree that it's not overstocking.
I'm assuming that this would be a 5-year or 10-year tank since there's no other way that I could justify the cost. My preference is to find fish that won't outgrow the tank and will remain healthy for years to come.
A full-grown yellow, purple, or powder blue tang is an 8"-10" fish. Can I honestly keep more than one long-term?
OP
OP
Vassal of Ulmo
New Member
The 4 ft 120 gal and 6 ft 125 gal are two different ball games. Honestly, if I was in the market for a 6 ft tank my preference would be 180 gal. My understanding from beginner guides is that tanks with more front-to-back depth, like the 120 and 180 gal, are easier to aquascape and make better reef tanks. Does that ring true to you?
Jekyl
GSP is the devil and clowns are bad pets
Bigger in any means is always better imo. More front to back means more aquascaping options, which can equal more fish. Worth side to side means some of the larger fish become available due to swim room.
Malum Argenteum
Active Member
I'd be real cautious about making any evaluations -- especially any used to support implicit recommendations to a novice keeper -- after only a couple months. The best info about species combinations and stocking levels come from at least a few years of observations, and when fish are mature.
Most folks who start out with no experience and tricky species like this one tend to just kill a fish, and likely add pathogens to their system in the bargain (you didn't mention a QT setup that I noticed). Best to think about which fish are best to learn the ropes on, in addition to stocking levels. The flame angel might be another to reconsider.
Also, going by minimum tank size requirements leads to providing the minimum amount of space for the fish. Better chances of success will follow from providing ideal care, not minimal care. After keeping a couple tangs in a 90g their whole lives (15+ years), I don't think I'll be keeping tangs in a 4' tank again; there's just not enough space for them. These are fish that when they get up to move to another spot on the reef, they'll move tens of yards, at least.
OP
OP
Vassal of Ulmo
New Member
Is there a good rule of thumb for novices to avoid overstocking when designing a tank that will hopefully last 5+ years? The minimum tank size of each species, compatibility chart, and 1" per 3 gal seemed like a good starting point to me as a novice. Some commenters are telling me that I can keep like 4+ tangs, a butterfly, and a foxface in a 4' aquarium, but based on my research that's a recipe for failure. But I've never owned a marine aquarium (yet), so I'm not certain.
Jekyl
GSP is the devil and clowns are bad pets
Recommended tank sizes for fish can be found at drreefsquarantinedfish.com and liveaquaria.com
The higher the gallon recommended, the less you should have in that size category if that makes some sense. Again a lot of what you can have and how much will depend on your rock work.
Malum Argenteum
Active Member
No, those vendors only list minimum tank sizes, not recommended tank sizes. Not sure why 'minimum'
has such a draw.
Either failure, or a bunch of fish that should have a better living situation. Keep in mind that few epic failures are reported; most keepers who botch things big time and simply quit the hobby don't publish the details.
There's no algorithm for figuring out how many or which species to keep. Some general tips:
1. Slow way down, and research before buying anything or even committing to anything (such as a 120g tank). Putting in six months of reading, visiting fish shops, talking to people will only be a good thing. After that, sitting on a tank full of LR and a couple of CUC inverts for at least a few months will help to gain confidence with the daily chores and let you ride out the initial system fragility without fish to worry about.
2. Figure out how you're going to handle QT and hospital tank needs.
3. Figure out which fish are most reliably hardy (so no 'ick magnets', or fish that need 6 feedings a day, or probably will only eat live food (mandarins...), or fish that just have poor long term outcomes (schools of almost anything; pairs of cardinals) ) and choose only from that list.
4. Of the fish you eventually might want to keep, figure out why not to keep them -- that is, figure out what their shortcomings or possible flaws or problems are.
5. Of the fish you might eventually want to keep, add the least territorial ones earlier than the more territorial ones.
6. Of the fish you might eventually want to keep, add the hardiest ones first and get some experience with them.
7. After adding a fish (or a couple), make sure everything is good for at least a handful of months before adding anything else. Try to understand the fish, and how it interacts with the others, to figure out how another fish might fit into the mix.
Naekuh
Well-Known Member
my wallet says otherwise... lol...
Bigger in our hobby also means several magnitudes more expensive, and it scales horribly in the cost per gallon area.
Joe.D
Active Member
My Kole Tang was harassing my Foxface when I first added him. That lasted about a day until the Foxface flashed his dorsal. Now they are best buddies and are always together - Tang is the leader, Foxface the follower.
LPS Bum
Well-Known Member
You're not going to see a Yellow Tang, a Purple Tang, or a Powder Blue Tang reach 8-10 inches in your system. I've had a super healthy Purple Tang for 15 years and it's never gotten past the 5 inch mark. I've had my Powder Brown Tang for 6 years and it's never gotten past the 5 inch mark. I've had my Yellow Tang for 9 years and it too is about 5 inches. The max sizes you see in the descriptions are rarely reached in captivity.
For reference, I have a Red Sea Reefer 625 XXL. The actual tank is 135 or so gallons. It's 5 feet long and 2 feet front to back. I have a Purple Tang, a Yellow Tang, a Powder Brown Tang, a Blue Throat Trigger, and a Yellow Pyramid Butterfly. No aggression problems whatsoever. But the tangs were added at the same time (when I set up the tank) and I also have a ton of caves, a ton of rock, and a lot of filtration. Hope that helps you.
FernBluffReef
Active Member
As proposed doesn’t seem overstocked to me. I believe I have 18 fish in my 125. I believe it to be fully stocked at this point and time . Maybe at some point, depending on how big they actually get, I may have to rehome one of the tangs.
. Maybe at some point, depending on how big they actually get, I may have to rehome one of the tangs.
alpenreef
Active Member
My recommendation is melanurus wrasse, skunk clown pair with nems, 2 or 3 tangs, zebra dartfish pair, filefish, diamond goby and most of all live ocean rock and sand from Florida so you dont have to wait forever for an established tank but can have all these fish right away with lots of corals.
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