How to Beat Dinoflagellates once and for all by julian sprung

[merereef]

As many of you will know, dinos are a pain. Mr julian sprung on live stream gave this explanation and this is the ONLY thing that worked for me. See he explains that dinos occur when there is a disturbance of some kind and to NOT syphon the sand as many of us do... this upsets the system even more.

Anyway watch the video he explains it beautifully

 

[cedwards04]

So his answer was uv sterilizer, and do nothing else? No waterchanges, no siphoning, no blowing the sand/rock?

I'm not convinced this will work. I say that bc i was running a uv sterilizer when my dino's bloomed, and I dont do waterchanges anyway, so that's not my issue either. I have tried vacuuming the sand frequently, and I've left it alone for at least a week. If left unchecked longer than that, they are going to start smothering/killing coral.

 

[pickle_fish]

So his answer was uv sterilizer, and do nothing else? No waterchanges, no siphoning, no blowing the sand/rock?

I'm not convinced this will work. I say that bc i was running a uv sterilizer when my dino's bloomed, and I dont do waterchanges anyway, so that's not my issue either. I have tried vacuuming the sand frequently, and I've left it alone for at least a week. If left unchecked longer than that, they are going to start smothering/killing coral.

How old is your UV light bulb? I had a small dino outbreak, turned out my bulb was blown. They are supposed te be replaced yearly anyway and cost a fraction of the UV unit itself.

 

[cedwards04]

How old is your UV light bulb? I had a small dino outbreak, turned out my bulb was blown. They are supposed te be replaced yearly anyway and cost a fraction of the UV unit itself.

Whole setup was new in August 2019. Dino outbreak since january. According to my apex, the bulb is still drawing proper wattage.

 

[X-37B]

I believe its an unbalance in bacteria levels. Why that happens I do not know as its just observation.
A balance in fish, yes live rock, inverts, lighting, flow, feeding, nutrient export all have an impact.
I dose 5ml of mb7 a week which may help too. Keeping the tank at "your" defined parameter levels helps too imo.

 

[NS Mike D]

I think the issue with UV is two part, One is having a proper UV that can kill the dinos faster than they reproduce and secondly, getting them into the water column so the UV can zap them. There is one species that doesn't go into the water column at night so the UV may not be the solution.

I could be wrong. So someone check my assumptions.


IMO, it's a numbers game. You have to rid the tank of enough dinos and build up the micro fuana so that they cannot take hold. That is a hard balancing act because the steps to kills dinos also causes disturbance to the microfuana, which is a valid point by Julian Sprung.

 

[X-37B]

I think the issue with UV is two part, One is having a proper UV that can kill the dinos faster than they reproduce and secondly, getting them into the water column so the UV can zap them. There is one species that doesn't go into the water column at night so the UV may not be the solution.

I could be wrong. So someone check my assumptions.


IMO, it's a numbers game. You have to rid the tank of enough dinos and build up the micro fuana so that they cannot take hold. That is a hard balancing act because the steps to kills dinos also causes disturbance to the microfuana, which is a valid point by Julian Sprung.

Agree, most run to small of a uv unit to have an effect imo.

 

[cedwards04]

Merereef, do you care to elaborate on what you did? Am I wrong in my understanding that he basically said leave it alone? How can you just leave it alone when it is growing so rapidly that it is overtaking the tank?

 

[merereef]

I think the issue with UV is two part, One is having a proper UV that can kill the dinos faster than they reproduce and secondly, getting them into the water column so the UV can zap them. There is one species that doesn't go into the water column at night so the UV may not be the solution.

I could be wrong. So someone check my assumptions.


IMO, it's a numbers game. You have to rid the tank of enough dinos and build up the micro fuana so that they cannot take hold. That is a hard balancing act because the steps to kills dinos also causes disturbance to the microfuana, which is a valid point by Julian Sprung.

You hit the nail on the head

 

[merereef]

Merereef, do you care to elaborate on what you did? Am I wrong in my understanding that he basically said leave it alone? How can you just leave it alone when it is growing so rapidly that it is overtaking the tank?

Basically what hes saying is... dinos is caused by a disturbance in the system. I have always in my mind believed this but everyone always mentions nutrients. I have always ran low nutrient tanks never had dinos before.. i stirred the sand because i watched a video on how to keep sand looking white and bam dinos... now if you drop ur nutrients too quickly that can also be a 'shock' to the system causing dino outbreak..

Hes saying a UV is helpfull and can help but not with all species... but his main point is to LET the system stabalise. The more we go in and disturb the sand by syphoning and blowing rocks etc we are prolonging it. I mean believe me i did all those things that we are told to do and i was fighting them for 10 months or so. I listens to this live stream and thought you know what... i dont care about the brown sand.. im going to leave it alone. A week went by and the sand looked really bad.. then week 2 i noticed it looked better... week 3 all gone. By me not suphoning the sand or blowing the rocks every day or 2 days i just left it ALONE AND THE SYSTEM STABALISED and it went away. The more WE disturb it the longer the process will take. yeah by syphoning etc we can feel like its helping because it looks better but guess what it doesnt cure it as the sand looks worse after a few days again.. hope that clears it up

 

[merereef]

Merereef, do you care to elaborate on what you did? Am I wrong in my understanding that he basically said leave it alone? How can you just leave it alone when it is growing so rapidly that it is overtaking the tank?

Saying this... the only thing i would do is if i had dinos smothering corals then i would only blow them off and leave everything else undisturbed

 

[cedwards04]

Did you do anything else during that time such as dosing bottle bacteria, black outs or shorter photo periods? Filter socks, no filter socks?

 

[merereef]

Did you do anything else during that time such as dosing bottle bacteria, black outs or shorter photo periods? Filter socks, no filter socks?

Nothing... absolutely nothing.. i removed filter socks as i didnt want any ditritus taken out.. wanted to let the system get dirty... ditritus is also food for corals etc so left it.. no bacteria dosing however i think its a good thing to do this as it will help build your bacteria up. No black outs just

Heres everything i did exactly
1–left the tank alone no hands in tank... no suphoning no blowing rocks nothing.
Checked the system for any rusting pumps or heaters etc.
2-fed the fish flakes and frozen sparingly 2-3 times a day..
3 removed filter socks.
4- i just changed my mentality which was...forget about the dinos they are not there.. focus on the corals and the fish..
i actually increased my lights as my corals were a lil brown so wanted more par, like i said i was acting as if the dinos didnt exist
end of week 1 the dinos looked really bad but i just didnt care
Second week noticed it was a little less

3rd week GONE. All on its own..

since then i i have left it alone and in about a months time i will suphonethe sand but a very small section at a time.

Ohh and i cleaned glass left skimmer running..

 

[Dan_P]

As many of you will know, dinos are a pain. Mr julian sprung on live stream gave this explanation and this is the ONLY thing that worked for me. See he explains that dinos occur when there is a disturbance of some kind and to NOT syphon the sand as many of us do... this upsets the system even more.

Anyway watch the video he explains it beautifully

Thanks for posting the link!

Sprung does not mention which species of dinoflagellates he is thinking about. That was a disappointment. Nor does he say the UV is the answer all the time for sure.

Also, he seems to be speculating about the cause of dinoflagellates. He tells a convincing story about ”disturbance” and “balance”, two very popular terms these days that could mean anything. Sprung’s argument sounds good until you ask the question “how do I measure it?” How do I measure balance? How do I measure disturbance? What does a large distubance look like? Does a disturbance always lead to unbalancing?

i don’t feel I learned anything more from this video than Sprung‘s opinion about using a UV light to try to control dinoflagellates.

 

[andrewey]

Unfortunately, as much as Julian literally wrote the book on most of reef keeping, I'm not sure this was a great video, nor do I think attaching his name to his ruminations on the issue stands as evidence of anything. I'm not entirely convinced the "rise" in dinoflagellates is just us noticing them more- it's possible, but it's also possible that there has been a shift in the hobby that would allow for their proliferation. Whether this is different pumps, lights, lower levels of phosphate/nitrates, different medias we're using, or species we're introducing, the hobby changes dramatically very quickly. All of these could be causing the "disturbance" Julian is referring to, but I think it's too simplistic to dismiss it outright. Sure, I dealt with dinoflagellates 15 years ago (mostly osteoporosis), but the dinoflagellates I've been dealing with the last couple years are a whole different ballgame. That's just a n=1 and anecdotal, but I'm not convinced we're not seeing parameters that favor their growth or even a shift in the species most hobbyists are encountering.

Additionally, I'm not convinced the answer is sound in all cases. In a "stable" environment that undergoes perturbations, it's very possible the advice is sound. However, what would happen if the environment selected for dinoflagellates proliferation. I don't see how "waiting it out" would benefit this system. Obviously it's hard to know which system you're dealing with, but that's exactly my point. Dinoflagellates are a broad topic and I'm not sure one size fits all anymore than one treatment for cancer treats all cancer. Obviously the real answer is a bit more nuanced then a four minute video allows, but I would have liked to see more of an emphasis on how this is an ongoing topic of study.

 

[merereef]

Thanks for posting the link!

Sprung does not mention which species of dinoflagellates he is thinking about. That was a disappointment. Nor does he say the UV is the answer all the time for sure.

Also, he seems to be speculating about the cause of dinoflagellates. He tells a convincing story about ”disturbance” and “balance”, two very popular terms these days that could mean anything. Sprung’s argument sounds good until you ask the question “how do I measure it?” How do I measure balance? How do I measure disturbance? What does a large distubance look like? Does a disturbance always lead to unbalancing?

i don’t feel I learned anything more from this video than Sprung‘s opinion about using a UV light to try to control dinoflagellates.

Thank you for your sharing your opinion.. it helped me when no other method did.. for me that is enough. I guess the answer to your question would be to apply common sense.. like how people mention when doing maintenence syphon your sand bed in small portions.. well how small is small? Does that mean half or does that mean more than half? If i think about this id say maybe 20% or less others might say 10% but id say BOTH answers are about right. As its a estimate.

 

[andrewey]

Thank you for your sharing your opinion.. it helped me when no other method did.. for me that is enough. I guess the answer to your question would be to apply common sense.. like how people mention when doing maintenence syphon your sand bed in small portions.. well how small is small? Does that mean half or does that mean more than half? If i think about this id say maybe 20% or less others might say 10% but id say BOTH answers are about right. As its a estimate.

You're absolutely right- there are no easy recipes for success in this hobby. Only knowledge garnered from trial and error that applies to a majority of tanks. No two tank ecosystems are the same and one reefers success might be another's folly. Like medicine, many aim for "best practices" and while this is a moving target, the law of averages suggests with a little tinkering and luck, you'll be able to make an "average" reef, which is really what most people want (even if the average reef is spectacular ).

 

[merereef]

Unfortunately, as much as Julian literally wrote the book on most of reef keeping, I'm not sure this was a great video, nor do I think attaching his name to his ruminations on the issue stands as evidence of anything. I'm not entirely convinced the "rise" in dinoflagellates is just us noticing them more- it's possible, but it's also possible that there has been a shift in the hobby that would allow for their proliferation. Whether this is different pumps, lights, lower levels of phosphate/nitrates, different medias we're using, or species we're introducing, the hobby changes dramatically very quickly. All of these could be causing the "disturbance" Julian is referring to, but I think it's too simplistic to dismiss it outright. Sure, I dealt with dinoflagellates 15 years ago (mostly osteoporosis), but the dinoflagellates I've been dealing with the last couple years are a whole different ballgame. That's just a n=1 and anecdotal, but I'm not convinced we're not seeing parameters that favor their growth or even a shift in the species most hobbyists are encountering.

Additionally, I'm not convinced the answer is sound in all cases. In a "stable" environment that undergoes perturbations, it's very possible the advice is sound. However, what would happen if the environment selected for dinoflagellates proliferation. I don't see how "waiting it out" would benefit this system. Obviously it's hard to know which system you're dealing with, but that's exactly my point. Dinoflagellates are a broad topic and I'm not sure one size fits all anymore than one treatment for cancer treats all cancer. Obviously the real answer is a bit more nuanced then a four minute video allows, but I would have liked to see more of an emphasis on how this is an ongoing topic of study.

I wish i was smart enough to answer your questions in far greater detail lol im just sharing a different point of view that dinos may occur when there is a disturbance in the system which personally ive not seen anyone else mention. Secondly his advice about letting the system mature ALSO worked for me.. in fact it was the ONLY thing that worked for me..

methods ive tried that didnt work
- increase nutrients
-black out
-hydrogen peroxide
-Remove sand
-Uv
-elegent corals method
-Silicate dosing

Battling this for 10 months none of thes emethods worked for me however just listening to his advice.. took it on board.. thats the only thing that worked for me.

 

[Michael Gray]

I'm currently in process of not touching my dang sand lol.

 

[merereef]

I'm currently in process of not touching my dang sand lol.

Lollll would you like to share how that is going for you?