Humidity Control Help Needed

[JBs_Reef]

Hello R2R Community,

We recently moved and I have 2 large (3’x5’) grownout tanks in my basement as my new 260 is getting built.

I do not want to run a dehumidifier as I have in the past. There has to be a better option out there for fish areas. A few logistics I have or need to meet:

Needs to be quiet if it is a ceiling mount as it is directly below our family room

I have a 4” vent available already drilled to the outside because and near the tank. we removed the dryer in the basement. I can use it but don’t have to.

I don’t need to be cheap. With what I have in my tank I don’t mind spending some money for the best equipment. I also cant put a price on my families health.

Any ideas are GREATLY appreciated!!!

 

[JBs_Reef]

I just noticed this is posted in the selling forum. Can a mod please move this to the proper forum?

 

[3mm3]

I would look into an air exchanger system. I think that is the route I will be taking on my build.

 

[JBs_Reef]

I would look into an air exchanger system. I think that is the route I will be taking on my build.

Any idea of brand/ model you are looking at.

 

[3mm3]

At this time I don't know what brand to go with but I can tell you I'm going with the heat recovery type. (I'm also in michigan)

 

[redfishbluefish]

What the posts are talking about are Heat Exchanger Ventilators (HRV) that exchanges inside air from outside air, and in the process "save" either the heat or cold that is within the house.

These are common in today's tightly built houses that eliminates the stale air inside with fresh air outside. My only concern is the high moisture content and the precipitation (condensation) of moisture within the unit. I'd suggest getting advice from an HVAC person to answer this question and size the unit.

 

[theMeat]

Heat exchanger as pictured above is a good idea but does not recover all temp. If it was on higher levels of house would say get it. For humidity in basement not nearly as much needed.
I’d get a bathroom exhaust fan, mounted hi on wall, instead of ceiling for noise sake, and couple it with a humidistat for auto function.

If you have central air/heat you could ad a return from the tank area as well or instead of vent. And in the case of you doing both these things would add heat exchanger

 

[3mm3]

Heat exchanger as pictured above is a good idea but does not recover all temp. If it was on higher levels of house would say get it. For humidity in basement not nearly as much needed.
I’d get a bathroom exhaust fan, mounted hi on wall, instead of ceiling for noise sake, and couple it with a humidistat for auto function.

If you have central air/heat you could ad a return from the tank area as well or instead of vent. And in the case of you doing both these things would add heat exchanger

In my case I have central air and heat with humidity control. Vents also throughout basement. Would you add exchanger then?

 

[Saveafish]

@CrabbyCorals i think your looking at something like this?
https://www.acinfinity.com/componen...ydcjY7-6tEnQxqcSF-6Kise9v-vZXyPsaAsCWEALw_wcB
Here
https://www.acinfinity.com/duct-fan-systems/

 

[theMeat]

In my case I have central air and heat with humidity control. Vents also throughout basement. Would you add exchanger then?

In basement, do you have vents coming in and out of hvac?

Exchanger is used to add outside air in an efficient way

 

[3mm3]

In basement, do you have vents coming in and out of hvac?

Exchanger is used to add outside air in an efficient way

Yes I have both.

 

[theMeat]

Is return directly on hvac unit, or does it run through duct?
What i’m getting at is run a return from close to where tank is.
With a return in basement, if you add a vent, an exchange is a good idea.

 

[ADAM]

The AC will have to run to keep the humidity in check, during mild weather and heating season the central HVAC system won’t meet the requirements reliantly. Most thermostats on central HVAC systems with humidity control functions simply run the AC 2-3 degrees cooler than the set point. If you set the Tstat at cool on 75 and the humidity is above your setting it will operate the AC extra time until the indoor temp is down to 72-73 trying to lower the humidity, it will lower the indoor with out changing the reading on the display to show the extra usage. A dehumidifier cost less to run than this option, Cetral AC 12a at 240v= 2880 watts, portable dehumidifier 7a at 120v= 840 watts of electric usage.

If you plan to keep the sump/ grow out station in the basement I would have a dedicated ducted dehumidifier installed in the HVAC system. These can use the same drain system as the AC (no bucket to dump or plastic tube running all around the floor). If part of the system is in the basement area, either furnace, air handler, or just ducting the dehumidifier would be fairly simple to install in the basement itself. If noise is issue one with the dehumidifier, these type of ducted dehumidifiers are great because they are ducted into the system so it can be installed essentially anywhere there is Return Air ducting. I have the Trane Envirowise 70 running in my crawlspace to keep the moisture down, NC humidity causes A LOT of sweating of the ducting in crawlspaces, which leads to growth and moist wood. It is directly under my kids bedroom adjoining wall, top of the DH is 14” away from the floor joist. I can only hear it cut ON if I’m trying to hear it.

The HRV and ERV (ventilators) would lower the indoor humidity only if the outdoor humidity is lower than the indoor. The ducted DH in my opinion (20 yrs HVAC and IAQ) would be the best choice for the situations we encounter as Reefers.

 

[ADAM]

In addition, the Trane Envirowise DH I use has the option of being a ventilating dehumidifier also. This way you can bring in outside air and dehumidify. I’d really only use this option if the house was built “very tight” though, most houses allow enough outside air for Carbon/ Oxygen exchange that this method isn’t required. The below pictures give you an idea of the install options. The first pic is the ventilating DH, the second pic shows non-ducted install (top of pic 2) and Central System ducted (bottom half of pic 2) methods.

[/QUOTE]

The AC will have to run to keep the humidity in check, during mild weather and heating season the central HVAC system won’t meet the requirements reliantly. Most thermostats on central HVAC systems with humidity control functions simply run the AC 2-3 degrees cooler than the set point. If you set the Tstat at cool on 75 and the humidity is above your setting it will operate the AC extra time until the indoor temp is down to 72-73 trying to lower the humidity, it will lower the indoor with out changing the reading on the display to show the extra usage. A dehumidifier cost less to run than this option, Cetral AC 12a at 240v= 2880 watts, portable dehumidifier 7a at 120v= 840 watts of electric usage.

If you plan to keep the sump/ grow out station in the basement I would have a dedicated ducted dehumidifier installed in the HVAC system. These can use the same drain system as the AC (no bucket to dump or plastic tube running all around the floor). If part of the system is in the basement area, either furnace, air handler, or just ducting the dehumidifier would be fairly simple to install in the basement itself. If noise is issue one with the dehumidifier, these type of ducted dehumidifiers are great because they are ducted into the system so it can be installed essentially anywhere there is Return Air ducting. I have the Trane Envirowise 70 running in my crawlspace to keep the moisture down, NC humidity causes A LOT of sweating of the ducting in crawlspaces, which leads to growth and moist wood. It is directly under my kids bedroom adjoining wall, top of the DH is 14” away from the floor joist. I can only hear it cut ON if I’m trying to hear it.

The HRV and ERV (ventilators) would lower the indoor humidity only if the outdoor humidity is lower than the indoor. The ducted DH in my opinion (20 yrs HVAC and IAQ) would be the best choice for the situations we encounter as Reefers.

 

[JBs_Reef]

@CrabbyCorals i think your looking at something like this?
https://www.acinfinity.com/componen...ydcjY7-6tEnQxqcSF-6Kise9v-vZXyPsaAsCWEALw_wcB
Here
https://www.acinfinity.com/duct-fan-systems/

This looks great.

 

[JBs_Reef]

The AC will have to run to keep the humidity in check, during mild weather and heating season the central HVAC system won’t meet the requirements reliantly. Most thermostats on central HVAC systems with humidity control functions simply run the AC 2-3 degrees cooler than the set point. If you set the Tstat at cool on 75 and the humidity is above your setting it will operate the AC extra time until the indoor temp is down to 72-73 trying to lower the humidity, it will lower the indoor with out changing the reading on the display to show the extra usage. A dehumidifier cost less to run than this option, Cetral AC 12a at 240v= 2880 watts, portable dehumidifier 7a at 120v= 840 watts of electric usage.

If you plan to keep the sump/ grow out station in the basement I would have a dedicated ducted dehumidifier installed in the HVAC system. These can use the same drain system as the AC (no bucket to dump or plastic tube running all around the floor). If part of the system is in the basement area, either furnace, air handler, or just ducting the dehumidifier would be fairly simple to install in the basement itself. If noise is issue one with the dehumidifier, these type of ducted dehumidifiers are great because they are ducted into the system so it can be installed essentially anywhere there is Return Air ducting. I have the Trane Envirowise 70 running in my crawlspace to keep the moisture down, NC humidity causes A LOT of sweating of the ducting in crawlspaces, which leads to growth and moist wood. It is directly under my kids bedroom adjoining wall, top of the DH is 14” away from the floor joist. I can only hear it cut ON if I’m trying to hear it.

The HRV and ERV (ventilators) would lower the indoor humidity only if the outdoor humidity is lower than the indoor. The ducted DH in my opinion (20 yrs HVAC and IAQ) would be the best choice for the situations we encounter as Reefers.

Let me add that my condo was built in the 70 and is not air tight at all. Would this change your recommendation. Or would this still be the best option based on your HVAC experience?

Also what kind of an install price would I be looking at from my HVAC installer?

Thank you

 

[ADAM]

-Well a few things have to be taken into consideration first as far as cost, plus the added comfort of humidity control needs be taken into account also. Lower humidity levels in the summer will aid the AC operational cost and effectiveness, and the overall comfort. Plus the lower humidity in the winter will stop the "rainforest" effect of the heat.
-First as I mentioned the optional installation method of a ventilating dehumidifier, this method would most likely not be needed if the dwelling were built in the 70s. But V-DH is an option if "fresh" outdoor air is wanted/ needed for IAQ, and careful consideration would be needed on placement of the outdoor air intake to avoid areas near furnace exhaust, plumbing exhaust, parking areas, trash cans/ dumpsters, and that's just a few unwanted areas that can really cause a stink or potential health risk.
-The grow-out tanks in the basement evaporation may be able to be handled with a simple bath fan exhausted though the available opening you mentioned, another means of outside air would needed to supply fresh air into the basement as the fan exhaust will create a negative pressure if not and pull air down from the living area exhausting your heated and cooled air outside (neighborhood cats will enjoy it tho!).
-Now the air in the living space where the 210 DT will be will have evaporation that will most likely need to be dealt with or you will end up with puddles of water on window sills and door sills. Sweating windows and doors will start to grow spots and green fur which is not healthy. Also elevated moisture inside the home will cause excess water in the HVAC system and can cause elevated growth in the ducting due to the extra water molecules settling inside the duct.
- If the basement is fully finished and this is where the DT is going also the use of a straight dehumidifier would be preferred because a finished basement would be heated and cooled along with the rest of the house and an exhaust fan will blow your heat and AC right out with the moisture, plus the more humid the air the more heat it can hold.
- If the basement is unfinished/ partially finished (unheated by the central HVAC) and the DT is in the upstairs living area, then as mentioned above, a bath fan in the basement and a means of dehumidification for the living space air for IAQ.
--Now as far installation and cost. If your basement has exposed central ducting, preferably return air, then installation would cost as much as if the ducting was mostly concealed. If the installation area has readily available power for the dehumidifier would be another factor of cost also. Ducted dehumidifiers can be purchased many places, Amazon even has some that are Prime 2-day shipping eligible. If the ducting is easily accessible, and there is a sufficient power supply nearby, and if you are a fairly handy with tools the installation could be done yourself for probably $1500 or less (average price I found online for reputable Ducted DH was $1000). If the basement area only has one power circuit (plugs) the power usage of the DH and a couple heaters in the grow-out tanks/ sump would likely be too much. Which normally I install at least one new dedicated branch circuit (plug) to sump and DT areas (vacuum cleaners and tank heaters=tripped breaker).
--Your area service install rates - In my town the average Service Call hourly labor rate is $90 however 45 minutes west the average hourly rate is $125, so the same install we do wold likely be 25-40% higher a city over!
-- On average, houses with plenty of access area (basements and 3-4ft high crawl spaces) with readily available power outlet, to set the machine, install drain line, duct into the system, and install a humidistat (if the current thermostat isn't dehumidification capable) the installation would be $3200.
--Most reputable companies would give you a written proposal/ estimate for the installation, although many companies will likely only want to use machine they provide and install. Some may would price the install both ways also, your machine installed= X, or their machine installed=X. Which if your state is like NC, the total installation of their provided machine job would be sales tax exempt since it is equipment connected to your central HVAC system. If you purchased the machine they will charge you sales tax at purchase of the DH, and the labor/ materials for install would likely be taxed also, again depends on local tax codes. Form 589-CI is used here when replacing/ adding equipment to a residential house.

Im sure Ive forgot something, will add as remembered.

 

[Snoopy 67]

I use one from this company: https://www.aprilaire.com/
Might give you some ideas.

 

[ADAM]

I use one from this company: https://www.aprilaire.com/
Might give you some ideas.

I know a lot of contractors have switched to Aprilaire in my area since Honeywell has change their design. Haven't heard any complaints out of them.