ICP results interpretation?

[drawman]

Just got my ICP results from ICP-analysis. I ran the test because I've been having a lot of problems with my acros over the past month with tissue necrosis and loss of several frags. I was hoping this would help lead me to possible solutions but I see several issues unfortunately. I am currently using Aquaforest probiotic reef salt on this tank and have been for many months.

First off all the major elements are very low. I used Jim Welsh's salinity calculator (had to guess on Br) and it put me right around 30ppt instead of 34ppt. Now my test kits are showing much higher Calcium and Magnesium (read sea pro) and I just recalibrated my refractometer 3 times with the same solution to see if anything is off. If I assume my refractometer calibration solution is accurate and multiply these numbers (Ca,Mg) by 34ppt/30ppt then the values are more in line with what I get from my test kit. What is the likelihood that ICP is off? I will be buying a new refractometer calibration solution ASAP to double check.

I am not happy about the presence of certain elements. Namely Silver, Barium, Chromium, Valadium, Tungsten. Not really sure how bad these levels are but I'm sure it would be nice to have zero. I recently found a screw above my sump that had some rust on it...I wonder if I got contamination from that or another source. I also dose sodium nitrate. Thoughts? I think I'll be doing a large water change soon.

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

 

[kchapmanjr]

Check your salinity. Almost all of your major salts are very low.

 

[drawman]

Check your salinity. Almost all of your major salts are very low.

Yes as I said I'm going to buy another calibration solution. I think that's where I will start but I'm also concerned about the metals. Either way hopefully water changes will produce results.

 

[GoVols]

Yes as I said I'm going to buy another calibration solution. I think that's where I will start but I'm also concerned about the metals. Either way hopefully water changes will produce results.

If you don't mind.
Buy yourself the Salifert mag. test while your shopping.

 

[drawman]

If you don't mind.
Buy yourself the Salifert mag. test while your shopping.

I was honestly thinking that too after reading some threads yesterday. At the very least it will be one more way to confirm what's off.

I just picked up some mortons iodized salt...time to make Randy's DIY calibration fluid.

 

[jwshiver]

Consider sending in a sample of your salt mix next time you mix some up for a water change. I was using NeoMarine until I sent in a sample of it. That confirmed the source of my problems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not happy about the presence of certain elements. Namely Silver, Barium, Chromium, Valadium, Tungsten. Not really sure how bad these levels are but I'm sure it would be nice to have zero. I recently found a screw above my sump that had some rust on it...I wonder if I got contamination from that or another source. I also dose sodium nitrate. Thoughts? I think I'll be doing a large water change soon.

FWIW, I do not know how accurate the values are at low levels, or what their limit of accurate quantitation actually is. That said, some of those are elements required by organisms, and I wouldn't assume a salt mix for a water change has "none". Here's my commentary on some of them from my own Triton results:

http://www.reefedition.com/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/

Vanadium (V). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of vanadium (1.8 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.9 µg/L. Still, detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing.

Chromium (Cr). Chromium is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.3 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.9 µg/L, so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

 

[drawman]

FWIW, I do not know how accurate the values are at low levels, or what their limit of accurate quantitation actually is. That said, some of those are elements required by organisms, and I wouldn't assume a salt mix for a water change has "none". Here's my commentary on some of them from my own Triton results:

http://www.reefedition.com/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/

Vanadium (V). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of vanadium (1.8 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.9 µg/L. Still, detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing.

Chromium (Cr). Chromium is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.3 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.9 µg/L, so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

Yeah I realized after writing that several of the elements are in Aquaforest's supplements so it would reason that they would be in their salt at a higher concentration. I guess I was more worried about a rust/contamination source.

Randy should I be worried about the Silver, Barium, and Tungsten?

Also I made up your reference solution last night and my refractometer was reading around 1.030 . I was using volume measurements not weights so I'm going to cross test with a new store bought reference before I freak out and tweak everything. I'm also thinking of using a kitchen scale to double check my salt measurement (it may give me more confidence at the least).

 

[HolisticBear]

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Using this calculator, your salinity comes out at 30.8ppt, so that's low.

B.U.T. your S is double the expected value and about five minutes ago, we saw a completely ridiculous S value (270x rather than 2x). I'm not sure what that means.

 

[drawman]

Using this calculator, your salinity comes out at 30.8ppt, so that's low.

B.U.T. your S is double the expected value and about five minutes ago, we saw a completely ridiculous S value (270x rather than 2x). I'm not sure what that means.

Yeah that's what I calculated as well from Jim Welsh's calculator and I agree proportionally my S is rather high...not sure that it makes much sense to get concerned about that yet. It's definitely concerning as I am using a reference solution with my refractometer (Aqua-craft). I think cross-checking with a new reference will be prudent before raising salinity as I am testing Ca at 410 and Mag at 1420.

It makes me want to get a good scale and make my own reference solutions from now on. What good are they if quality control isn't there.

 

[HolisticBear]

It makes me want to get a good scale and make my own reference solutions from now on. What good are they if quality control isn't there.

I went a similar pain of doubting my salinity ~ two weeks ago based off measurements. I ended up buying a second refractometer and another bottle of calibration solution. Sadly BRS only sells the one brand of calibration solution, so two bottles of Aqua-craft I do prefer my new BRS refractometer over my old Red Sea however.

 

[drawman]

Well I believe my refractometer is and has been calibrated correctly.

I made up Randy's DIY solution by measuring roughly 78 grams of Morton's iodized table salt (using a kitchen scale with accuracy verified to be reasonable by 55g of Nickels) mixed in 2L of water (measured using 2 separate plastic containers with both mL and L measurements marked). It was spot on with my Aquacraft calibration fluid. Also, my measurements of Calcium and Magnesium correspond to 400 and 1400, respectively. So at this point I believe ICP-analysis to be off by a factor of about 30/34 until I prove otherwise. I have a new bottle of calibration solution on the way so I can reconfirm with it when it arrives.

For now I will see if water changes improve things any.

 

[GoVols]

Well I believe my refractometer is and has been calibrated correctly.

I made up Randy's DIY solution by measuring roughly 78 grams of Morton's iodized table salt (using a kitchen scale with accuracy verified to be reasonable by 55g of Nickels) mixed in 2L of water (measured using 2 separate plastic containers with both mL and L measurements marked). It was spot on with my Aquacraft calibration fluid. Also, my measurements of Calcium and Magnesium correspond to 400 and 1400, respectively. So at this point I believe ICP-analysis to be off by a factor of about 30/34 until I prove otherwise. I have a new bottle of calibration solution on the way so I can reconfirm with it when it arrives.

For now I will see if water changes improve things any.

When you mix a new batch for your water changes.
Can you send a fresh sample of your new mix that never hit your tank to a lab of your choosing?

 

[HolisticBear]

Well I believe my refractometer is and has been calibrated correctly.

It's $$$, but if you think the chemistry in your water is the same as when you mailed the sample, it sure would be interesting to compare to a Triton report. Heck, even mailing another sample (if you paid for a 2 or 4 pack) and see if you get the same results.

 

[GoVols]

It's $$$, but if you think the chemistry in your water is the same as when you mailed the sample, it sure would be interesting to compare to a Triton report. Heck, even mailing another sample (if you paid for a 2 or 4 pack) and see if you get the same results.

+1
And send them a sample of freshly mixed water too, that never hit your tank.

 

[drawman]

When you mix a new batch for your water changes.
Can you send a fresh sample of your new mix that never hit your tank to a lab of your choosing?

It's $$$, but if you think the chemistry in your water is the same as when you mailed the sample, it sure would be interesting to compare to a Triton report. Heck, even mailing another sample (if you paid for a 2 or 4 pack) and see if you get the same results.

+1
And send them a sample of freshly mixed water too, that never hit your tank.

I may end up doing all of that . At first it would be interesting to compare the NSW otherwise water changes won't get me very far. Initially, I chose ICP-analysis because of turnaround time. I'll keep this thread updated either way!

Hopefully water changes will turn things around...

 

[Hans-Werner]

While chloride is low your sulfur (S) is extremely high, nearly twice as high as normal. How can that be? How did that happen? If this measuring is correct there is an extreme surplus of sulfate salts. Did you add sulfate? With this sulfate concentration I would be surprised that anything is normal in this tank.

 

[drawman]

While chloride is low your sulfur (S) is extremely high, nearly twice as high as normal. How can that be? How did that happen? If this measuring is correct there is an extreme surplus of sulfate salts. Did you add sulfate? With this sulfate concentration I would be surprised that anything is normal in this tank.

This tank has only run Aquaforest Probiotic Reef Salt so I have to conclude it is coming from that. I use calcium chloride and sodium carbonate to maintain Ca and Alk and have not dosed anything for Magnesium. I agree it is out of whack. I just did a 30% water change last night and may end up getting a bucket of Red Sea Blue Bucket just to see if there is any difference.

 

[HolisticBear]

While chloride is low your sulfur (S) is extremely high, nearly twice as high as normal. How can that be? How did that happen? If this measuring is correct there is an extreme surplus of sulfate salts. Did you add sulfate? With this sulfate concentration I would be surprised that anything is normal in this tank.

In another thread yesterday, a gentlemen showed two reports with completely bogus sulfur, like 270x normal values. The lab must have made an error. Given the calculation of salinity in this report is wrong, I wouldn't trust these numbers. Everything should be checked by another set of tests.

 

[drawman]

In another thread yesterday, a gentlemen showed two reports with completely bogus sulfur, like 270x normal values. The lab must have made an error. Given the calculation of salinity in this report is wrong, I wouldn't trust these numbers. Everything should be checked by another set of tests.

I just saw that lol. I guess someone missed their coffee while writing down numbers. I agree that coupled with my salinity issue I have to take everything with a HUGE grain of salt. I think the best thing to take away is it's always best to not freak out and overcorrect.

I totally forgot to take a sample that I could hold for more tests before doing my water change. I will still try to do more in the coming weeks.