I'm >this close< to adding livestock....

[Joe31415]

TL;DR This post got longer than I anticipated. Feel free to skip down to the bottom for my actual questions...
TL;DR, should I add a clown and a coral to my tank in a week or so when it should be just about done cycling?

A while back, I started a thread asking some questions about ammonia dosing. That was about a month ago when I had just started cycling the tank with Dr Tims One and Only. This isn't my first time cycling a tank (only once before though (freshwater)), so I was well aware that this was going to take a while. No big deal anyway, it gave me a lot of time to gather all the equipment I'll be needing (and then some).

Moving on...this is a 40g breeder that I drilled the glass to mount the overflow box (as high as possible) and 20 gallon sump. Since the DT isn't filled to the brim and the sump is about half-ish full, I usually work on the assumption that my total water volume is about 45-50 gallons. There's 40 pounds of (normal aquarium) sand about about 60 pounds of Reef Saver Dry Rock, the ones BRS sells as "Dry Live Rock".
As I mentioned earlier (and in the other thread) I kicked the whole thing off with Dr Tims and dosed it with ammonia. I tested the water regularly and nothing was happening, or what was happening was happening really, really slowly. Again, I know that's how it goes, but just for kicks I tossed in a bottle of Bio Spira, a small dose of ammonia and 12 hours later I had a measurable amount of Nitrites and Nitrates. That was 2 days ago. As of today, my ammonia is measuring about .5-1ppm (API kit, so take that for what it's worth), not that I ever really let it get all that high, Nitrites are at 2 and Nitrates are at 20.

I'm thinking, if don't add any more ammonia, my nitrites should settle down over the next few days or a week, I can do a large water change and add a fish and maybe a coral. It's going to take everything I have not to buy something tomorrow (sunday), but another week is no big deal and it'll give me more time to buy more stuff. Who doesn't want more stuff.
To be honest, part of what's holding me back is that I'm not looking forward to lugging buckets of salt water up from my basement. I was really, really hoping the Versa pumps would be back in stock by now, but it's sounding like those aren't going to be back in stock anywhere until mid-summer.

My Actual Questions:
Can I add a fish and a coral to a freshly cycled tank at the same time or should I start with a fish on it's own?

Am I correct in understanding that a clown fish is good fish to start with?

What about corals? I'm not even sure where to start with them yet. I've watched a million BRS videos about them, but it's turning into a bit of information overload. I'm not sure if I should try my hand, with the help of the LFS guys at picking out a few or just get a mixed pack from BRS/LiveAquria etc.

No reason to turn the lights on until there's something in the tank, right? From what I'm reading, turning them on now is just going to jump start algae problems.

In a previous life this tank was for lizards so I still have the metal screen top for it. Any reason why I shouldn't use that? I know it can withstand the heat from the lights. Is the only reason to use the mesh ones I see just to keep the fish from hurting themselves if they hit it?

Those versa pumps...They're not going to show up any time soon (but that doesn't stop me from checking multiple times a day). I know the DOS is the one I *should* get, but I've been avoiding buying into the Apex system. I know people love it, but it's hard to justify spending $800 to (Apex + DOS) just for the auto water changing feature.
Is the Apex something I should pull the trigger on? Is there another good quality water changing system similar to the versa pumps? Should I wait and see if Ecotech puts out a controller similar to Apex?

I have more questions, but I'm trying to exercise at least a bit of restraint here.

 

[Macbalacano]

Regarding your questions:

1) I would add only fish first and inverts/CUC just to get your parameters more stable and then add coral afterwards

2) Clownfish are good to start with, however, you should really plan your entire fish stocking list ahead of time. The main reason is that you want to make sure that all the fish you are planning to put in there are compatible with each other and you should add the fish in order of least aggressive to most aggressive.

3) As a general rule, soft corals are the easiest to care for, followed by LPS, followed by SPS. Similar to the above, you will want to plan this out ahead of time in terms of what coral you want to house in your tank. Each one will have different flow, lighting, feeding, and nutrient requirements. So you will want to choose corals that will all be 'compatible' (within reason) and that you have enough space for based on their placement requirements. If you want an easy introduction to some of these concepts - I really recommend the Tidal Gardens videos on different corals. They're very easy to understand and well produced!

4) No reason to turn the lights on while something isn't living in there

5) I would advise against the metal screen. The main reason is that it could rust and then eventually leech harmful metals into your aquarium. There are lots of different kinds of lids available from DIY to custom ones.

6) Personally if it were me, I'd hold off on the Apex until your tank requirements increase/get more complicated. My advice to most people in this hobby is don't but anything until you are really sure that you need it. Otherwise, there is the potential that you could spend considerably more money than you need and end up with a system that is more complicated than it really needs to be!

 

[Joe31415]

Regarding 1,2 and 3...I absolutely don't have a plan. Even when I had my freshwater tank, when I wanted to add something, I'd add something compatible with what I already had rather than something on a list I had the foresight to make ahead of time. I'm guessing there's probably plenty of resources on the internet of lists of compatible fish/corals. People have been keep aquariums for so long there's no reason for me to have to figure it out on my own. I think that's what I'll do over the next few days. Find some kind of "pre-built" fish/coral lists. That way I can pick the list that has the most things I'd be interested in instead of backing myself into a corner.

5) I hadn't thought about the rust aspect of it. One of my lizards was a water dragon. His/her tank had the humidity cranked up enough that the it looked like a cloud half the time. Granted, it was just tap water, not salt water. The screens are, however, painted or coated with something. It's not that it's just bare steel. But good point. I'll have to see what I can find for a nice looking mesh top for it. I'm not a fan of some of the DIY looking ones. After spending thousands of dollars, I don't want that looks homemade (corners not quite 90 degrees. Zip ties holding the mesh to the frame. Sagging in the middle etc.

6)That's my current stance on the Apex system. It just seems like too big of an investment at this point in the game.

 

[Macbalacano]

Regarding 1,2 and 3...I absolutely don't have a plan. Even when I had my freshwater tank, when I wanted to add something, I'd add something compatible with what I already had rather than something on a list I had the foresight to make ahead of time. I'm guessing there's probably plenty of resources on the internet of lists of compatible fish/corals. People have been keep aquariums for so long there's no reason for me to have to figure it out on my own. I think that's what I'll do over the next few days. Find some kind of "pre-built" fish/coral lists. That way I can pick the list that has the most things I'd be interested in instead of backing myself into a corner.

5) I hadn't thought about the rust aspect of it. One of my lizards was a water dragon. His/her tank had the humidity cranked up enough that the it looked like a cloud half the time. Granted, it was just tap water, not salt water. The screens are, however, painted or coated with something. It's not that it's just bare steel. But good point. I'll have to see what I can find for a nice looking mesh top for it. I'm not a fan of some of the DIY looking ones. After spending thousands of dollars, I don't want that looks homemade (corners not quite 90 degrees. Zip ties holding the mesh to the frame. Sagging in the middle etc.

6)That's my current stance on the Apex system. It just seems like too big of an investment at this point in the game.

I hear you on the experience from freshwater - but I will tell you that it gets much more complicated with saltwater. There are tons of good examples on the forum. I would recommend you look at build threads of people who have a similar size tank as you and see what their fish stocking lists are like.

Or just start to look into certain fish you like and see what other people keep with them.

Lots of custom lid companies and products available. You'll also see lots of people that have them here on this forum

 

[RobertTheNurse]

I started off with snails and crabs for a few weeks when I started adding livestock. It kind of got the whole tank a little more settled first before I added my first fish. So there's that.

Also, are you still using API? I did at the beginning, and quickly switched to Red Sea or Salifert.

Also, why not focus next while you wait on building a little quarentine tank? Get some meds on board (just in case).

Rob

 

[Joe31415]

I started off with snails and crabs for a few weeks when I started adding livestock. It kind of got the whole tank a little more settled first before I added my first fish. So there's that.

I had snails in my fresh water tank and never had good luck with them. Every one I had would get out of the tank. They didn't survive well on the carpet 6 feet away from the tank.

Also, are you still using API? I did at the beginning, and quickly switched to Red Sea or Salifert.

I'm using the API master kit for PH, Am, Nitrate and Nitrite. I have Hanna testers for phosphate/calcium/alk and salinity.
I know the API tests aren't the best, but I assumed they're good enough to get through the cycling portion. Especially considering that it's more about trends than actual numbers. That is, is Nitrate going up or stalling? Is Nitrite increasing or decreasing? Is ammonia present? So I use the cheap API tests, chart the numbers I get (and note any changes I made that will affect the parameters) and track things that way. I can upgrade to (probably) Red Sea as I need to.

Also, why not focus next while you wait on building a little quarentine tank? Get some meds on board (just in case).

I know, I know. I always avoided the QT tank with my freshwater fish. A combonation of good luck and a good LFS for freshwater fish meant it wasn't something I really needed. Once they closed up shop (for those in Milwaukee area, I'm talking about Hoffers), I was stuck with Petco. And, honestly, it was hard to put too much effort into a $3 fish.
Having said that, I do have a spare 40g breeder and 2 10 gallon tanks. Some extra heaters floating around, a tiny little HOB filter, an air pump/stones and maybe some other odds and ends. It shouldn't be a big deal to throw some sponge filters or something in the sump so I can get a QT up and running quickly if I need to.

Lots of custom lid companies and products available. You'll also see lots of people that have them here on this forum

I'll have to poke around some more with WRT lids. My tank is pretty standard (40g Breeder) and, in it's current configuration, would only need a few notches cut out of the back for the two lights and the return jet. I might still try out the metal one I have and keep a close eye on it for rust. I could even get some clear enamel (or otherwise weatherproof) spray paint and give it a coat or two for extra protection.


Another thing that's been bugging me. How important is it to buy/rent a PAR meter? If you watch BRS videos, they make it sound like the universe will collapse on itself if you don't rent one to get your lights set up. But I guessing the vast majority of people don't bother with it and just make adjustments as they see fit.

 

[Macbalacano]

I had snails in my fresh water tank and never had good luck with them. Every one I had would get out of the tank. They didn't survive well on the carpet 6 feet away from the tank.


I'm using the API master kit for PH, Am, Nitrate and Nitrite. I have Hanna testers for phosphate/calcium/alk and salinity.
I know the API tests aren't the best, but I assumed they're good enough to get through the cycling portion. Especially considering that it's more about trends than actual numbers. That is, is Nitrate going up or stalling? Is Nitrite increasing or decreasing? Is ammonia present? So I use the cheap API tests, chart the numbers I get (and note any changes I made that will affect the parameters) and track things that way. I can upgrade to (probably) Red Sea as I need to.


I know, I know. I always avoided the QT tank with my freshwater fish. A combonation of good luck and a good LFS for freshwater fish meant it wasn't something I really needed. Once they closed up shop (for those in Milwaukee area, I'm talking about Hoffers), I was stuck with Petco. And, honestly, it was hard to put too much effort into a $3 fish.
Having said that, I do have a spare 40g breeder and 2 10 gallon tanks. Some extra heaters floating around, a tiny little HOB filter, an air pump/stones and maybe some other odds and ends. It shouldn't be a big deal to throw some sponge filters or something in the sump so I can get a QT up and running quickly if I need to.


I'll have to poke around some more with WRT lids. My tank is pretty standard (40g Breeder) and, in it's current configuration, would only need a few notches cut out of the back for the two lights and the return jet. I might still try out the metal one I have and keep a close eye on it for rust. I could even get some clear enamel (or otherwise weatherproof) spray paint and give it a coat or two for extra protection.


Another thing that's been bugging me. How important is it to buy/rent a PAR meter? If you watch BRS videos, they make it sound like the universe will collapse on itself if you don't rent one to get your lights set up. But I guessing the vast majority of people don't bother with it and just make adjustments as they see fit.

If a PAR meter is readily available for you to rent, I would do it, it’s much better than guessing.

I wasn’t able to rent one, so I just looked online to see what intensity people were running the intensity of the lights that I owned and went from there. If you have a popular/common light, that might work for you as well.

Also freshwater snails and saltwater snails are very different. They will be a integral component of your tank!

 

[Joe31415]

If you have a popular/common light, that might work for you as well.

I have two AI Prime 16 HDs over a 40 gallon breeder. Very common lights and a very common set up.

 

[Macbalacano]

I have two AI Prime 16 HDs over a 40 gallon breeder. Very common lights and a very common set up.

nice, i'm sure you can find others here who have that set-up and what their lighting settings are.

 

[Joe31415]

Also, why not focus next while you wait on building a little quarentine tank? Get some meds on board (just in case).

I actually just started doing this. A few days ago I began to realize that it's going to be a little longer yet. I'm still waiting for the day when I check the tank in the morning and the nitrites have finally started heading back towards zero.
So as long as I have the time and not wanting to put all this work in jeopardy, I figured I might as well get that started. If for no other reason, when the tank is ready, the fish will have already started their quarantine.

I happen to have 2 10 gallon tanks on hand. My plan is/was to set one of them up as a QT. I assume they'll be big enough, my DT is a 40g Breeder, so there's not going to be anything too big in here. On the other hand, Petco is running their $1/g sale. So I might just pick up a regular 20g (or 20L), not sure yet. I've read pros and cons of bigger vs smaller QTs, but I might as well grab a cheap tank while they're on sale, right?

In any case, I have a 10g tank with a full lid (and cheap built in lights), heater, ammonia badge, HOB filter (I'll get rid of the carbon), sponge filters (the ones you attach an airline to), Copper Power, Hanna Copper meter, thermometer, PVC hiding places and a bottle of bio-spira.
My plan is to throw the sponge filters (bought a bunch of them, so I'll always have one ready) and whatever media comes with the HOB filter in my sump so it can start getting loaded up with bacteria and then when I'm ready to QT the first fish I can use that plus some bio-spira.

In any case what else do I need to worry about? There's so many "How to set up your QT" threads and articles and videos that I'd be broke just getting this up and running if I bought everything they all mentioned. The one thing, as far as meds/additives, I see the most is copper, which is why I grabbed that. Besides, it's pretty cheap. But people seem pretty split on using copper (or some other med) on all incoming fish or waiting to see if they need it.

*And, now that I think about it, maybe I'll set up both 10g and a 20g as QTs. That would dramatically speed things up. I mean, I'll space them out so I don't overload the DT at once, but this way I could potentially QT each one for 2 or 3 months and still be adding one a month. Hmmm, I'll have to see how much spare equipment I have laying around. I'm nearly positive I at least have some extra heaters and maybe another HOB filter.