Is growing algae for nutrient export a bad idea?

[robert]

Some opinions - feel free to differ.

What specifically does live-rock provide that cycled dead rock doesn't and why do you need it? - Nothing, you don't.
What do ATS systems provide that other forms of export do not - why do you need it? - Nothing, you don't.
What does macro algae do that other forms of export don't or cant? - Nothing - if anything its a negative.
What is the purpose of a corals slime coat? - Its a defense and means of controlling hydrostasis -
Do corals utilize positive allelopathy? - Yes, both positive and negative.

Are carbon /carbon compounds the most important controlling nutrients on the reef? - yes, and we largly ignore them.

 

[cb684]

What specifically does live-rock provide that cycled dead rock doesn't and why do you need it? - Nothing, you don't.
What do ATS systems provide that other forms of export do not - why do you need it? - Nothing, you don't.
What does macro algae do that other forms of export don't or cant? - Nothing - if anything its a negative.

IME strong statements in biological systems more often wrong than right. So I doubt your "Nothing" is right.

 

[robert]

Ok - what?
I would contend that if you knew "what" it was you could add it directly. Without the pitfalls of the "unknown" elements found in and on live rock.

I can detect no missing functionality starting from dead rock...what specifically am I missing that I *need* in my tank.

 

[Wiz]

For me there is an argument to be made that more or bigger is not always better. And although we are quite qualified to make things more in our favor then they would naturally be the outcome of this behavior is not necessarily a good. Nature slowly and steadily adjusts to the Conditions. Never heading in any one direction for too long causing an imbalance in what is there.What we do is find the same weaknesses that nature would and flood them with power In order to get a great result. But in the end we wind up tipping the scales and hurting other things Hurting the balance.Causing consequences That are not always the best. And are almost always unseen.For example, Growing crops at a higher rate and more of them causes weakness in the genetic strain and rips the soil of the proper nutrients for growing a particular type of plant.For using antibiotics to keep our meat healthy And larger Can result in weakness to medical treatments and a complete loss of entire stock. So then the question becomes Is it better to get a better results short term Or to build a more stable and Hardy system and which are animals can grow.It is my belief that our capability of turning everything to our favor Will be in the end our downfall.So while using all this chemical and physical filtration can and probably will produce a quicker growing coral In order to Propagate faster I am not entirely convinced that it is the way To build a stable environment.

in almost every other area - we as humans can usually out perform nature. By this I mean we can raise crops in our fields with higher yeilds that would occur naturally - we can raise fish, chickens, beef, pigs with higher density, larger specimines and in shorter time than would be expected in nature.

 

[Wiz]

Saying That the things that created The proper conditions 4 our coral reefs in the first place, Ie Sediments rock Microfauna macro algae's Do not contribute anything important To the Health and preservation of these corals Seems to me a very strong statement and at the very least very presumptuous.

Ok - what?
I would contend that if you knew "what" it was you could add it directly. Without the pitfalls of the "unknown" elements found in and on live rock.

I can detect no missing functionality starting from dead rock...what specifically am I missing that I *need* in my tank.

 

[robert]

Don't mistake my argument for a philosophical one. It is merely and attempt to demonstrate our relative lack of understanding of the reef systems we keep. I am not arguing that we should grow corals biger and better - only that we could if we knew better what we were doing.

To your next post - I said that cycled dead rock works as well as live rock in our system.
Nothing presumptious in this. It either does or it doesn't - your attempting to place some other "value" on live rock - what is it? Is it based in fact or belief? If it's fact - support it.

 

[Wiz]

Human beings have proven that they are capable of just about anything.What concerns me is the aspect of pride.From what I can tell nature in every aspect is created by the perfect conditions.So while the possibility of creating a more suitable and better product for us or in our eyes is definitely there, The idea that it is not already perfect is what gets me

Don't mistake my argument for a philosophical one. It is merely and attempt to demonstrate our relative lack of understanding of the reef systems we keep. I am not arguing that we should grow corals biger and better - only that we could if we knew better what we were doing.

 

[Wiz]

May I also just say that this thread is a perfect example of why I love Reef2reef. The deep conversation with opposing viewpoints and complete lack of animosity its unparalleled

 

[Wiz]

Just curious what type of anemones?

amazingly my 10 nickel sized anenomes now number over fourty and cover 10-20% of 24 square feet of tank bottom.

 

[Charles Raabe]

Love all the takes on this subject :) Again, how one sets up a system, as there are many successful methods, depends on one's goals. As noted, I prefer to strive towards as much diversity of life as possible and see corals as "eye candy" and beneficiaries of the system as a whole. The challenge for me and what I enjoy, is in striking a balance that allows for diversity with out too much of this or too little of that. I can also cheat if need be though..lol as all I have to do is run down to the beach and grab up ocean water anytime I want to, although I have never been forced to do so...yet... and have allowed the tank to run for a few years without a water change and have simply added calcium without being able to test for it :( just as a precaution for the corals and what not.
Today, I have a 30 gallon tank set up in the same manner (ats baffle) all ready to go and am waiting on my LED lights to arrive today before I make the trip to the beach for water and live sand. I can also hand pick all of the live rock right off the reef and will do so without the ATS fully functional so as to have a better chance at a balance happening. Then I will collect the clean up crew little by little then the corals and a few small fish. but.... little by little... :)

 

[rygh]

Some opinions - feel free to differ.

What specifically does live-rock provide that cycled dead rock doesn't and why do you need it? - Nothing, you don't.
What do ATS systems provide that other forms of export do not - why do you need it? - Nothing, you don't.
What does macro algae do that other forms of export don't or cant? - Nothing - if anything its a negative.
What is the purpose of a corals slime coat? - Its a defense and means of controlling hydrostasis -
Do corals utilize positive allelopathy? - Yes, both positive and negative.

Are carbon /carbon compounds the most important controlling nutrients on the reef? - yes, and we largly ignore them.

--
What a good algae scrubber can do is provide rapid reduction of Nitrates in a surprisingly small amount of space.
Can a fuge full of Chaeto do the same thing - sure, but it would be much larger.
Can vodka dosing, deep sandbeds, etc, reduce Nitrates - sure, but not nearly at the same rate.
Now does that specific rapid+small distinction matter, and do you need it? Maybe, maybe not.
Subjective and depends entirely on your system and bio-load.

--
Live rock has many natural critters. Some good, some bad. Dead rock does not.
Do you need those? Maybe, maybe not.
Subjective and depends entirely on what sort of system you want.

--

My point: Absolute statements like that don't really work.
There are too many different types of systems, and too many different wants and needs.

 

[robert]

Rygh - Its pretty hard to disagree with "maybe, maybe not"..."some are good and some are bad"

It would be helpful to me if you could expand on "the different types of systems" and why live rock might satisfy a specific need in one of these types...

Charles, your approach is certainly a way to encounter and observe the interactions of a diverse assortment of life in that contact zone between shore and reef - algae and corals. These zones certainly exist in nature and understanding them is facinating and important.

Where we might differ I think - is in out area of interest and approach. At this stage I tend to be more focused on understanding the coral holobiont beleiving (rightly or wrongly) that until this is better understood - the environmental interactions cannot be fully understood.

The holobiont might be easier to come to terms with in an aquarium - where what your interested in might be best observed on the reef itself and not in a tank.

Simply packing as many different organisms as possible into a system doesn't interest me - and its not the way nature works in most cases. The reef as a whole might be diverse, but it tends to clump with certain species predominating in certain areas with battlezones along the fringes where differing types of organisms fight for dominace in specific niches. If I want to gain basic understanding of the coral - its probably not the best place to observe.

So again it comes down to goals. If your into studying coral predators, pest and parasites - different algaes and their allelopathic interactions with corals. The yes live rock definately what you want and in that case is most definately superior to dead rock.

If your reefing to grow healthy coral specimens - not a necessary choice.

 

[robert]

Just curious what type of anemones?

Red and green bubble tips...the greens are the decendants of the first anenome I every tried - back in 2006.

 

[robert]

Hey - I was just looking for a pic of my old tank - and found this:
My last tank before the move - I didn't know anyone had used my pics - don't care - just nice to remember what I'm trying to get back to...only better this time.

 

[Wiz]

Red and green bubble tips...the greens are the decendants of the first anenome I every tried - back in 2006.

The size of nickels? And splitting?

 

[robert]

When I put them in there were 10-13 of them the size of nickels...they've grown and split repeatedly - now there are ~40 ranging in size between saucers and small dinner plates. - hosting a harem of true perculas. Thats about all I want - I'll start nutrient export using nems shortly. That counts doesn't it?

I'm looking for more clams - euphilia frags are back in and booming - gonis are stable - a couple of elegance - looking to add sps frags soon to the high current end -

Tyring to do only fresh cut frags - and let them grow in - as opposed to colonies. Keeps the pests out.

Nutrient levels still climb - so I need more corals - alot more.

No macro algeas this time...only corals, clams, anenomes - and sulphur denitrator only to the extent 0f slowing the rate of nutrient rise - not to bring it down. I always want a slow N increase - water changes get me back to baseline - which for now is 40.

 

[Wiz]

That's crazy. Pretty cool. seeing your results will be interresting. :-)

 

[Pete polyp]

I got to thinking about it and right about the time I added cheato to my sump the tank took another turn for the worse. I can't say definitely if the cheato caused the problem or not. Today in going to remove all of it and see what happens. I will update here with results.

 

[robert]

I got to thinking about it and right about the time I added cheato to my sump the tank took another turn for the worse. I can't say definitely if the cheato caused the problem or not. Today in going to remove all of it and see what happens. I will update here with results.

Yes, please keep us posted...

Whats the worst that can happen...you should see an increase in N and P - which should give a boost everything else in the tank.
Now if you have any problem algaes in the display, they'll get a boost too...go at them with more grazers, more corals and direct removal...

 

[Pete polyp]

I have no N with or without the cheato. I have to dose kno3, which started before the addition of the cheato. The reasons I added the cheato was for Po4 removal and to raise ph. I have propane heat so the pH is very low in the winter.