Kalkwasser/Alkalinity Help!!!

[sandfan85]

Hello fellow reefers. I’ve recently decided to give kalkwasser a try to see if I can maintain a stable PH as well as a stable Alk level. I’m currently dosing kalk via a stirrer and a kamoer peristaltic pump. I’m currently dosing at a rate of 4ml per minute. This is the most I can achieve based on my evaporation rate. Any more and I’m adding more than my water is evaporating. The problem I’m having is I’m unable to maintain a steady Alk level. I’ve added some soda ash to raise my Alk to the desired level, with the hopes that the kalkwasser would take over and maintain that level. But I’m noticing my levels are steadily falling. Should I be dosing Alk too? Once I notices the steady decline, I started dosing some Alk. The attached picture is with kalk and dosing 30ml of liquid Soda Ash.

I don’t have a bunch of corals as of yet, maybe 6-8 lps, and some various zoas. No sps.

 

[Saltyreef]

You need more evaporation to be able to dose the kalk reliably.
Give this setup a read through. Avast gives directions to get the most kalk into your system

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0872/1966/files/Kalk_Manual_v2.0.pdf?v=1606856114

 

[Suohhen]

Once Kalk can no longer keep up with the demand you can switch to a different product. I have heard that there is stuff more potent than kalk but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. You could promote more evaporation in your system with a fan. Or start supplementing with a two part. Given that you don't have a lot of coral it is likely that you have higher alk demands than cal so it usually works out nicely to not have kalk replenish 100% of your alk anyhow. You could also keep using soda ash or go all in and get a calcium reactor. The options are limitless.

 

[UnderseaOddities]

Once Kalk can no longer keep up with the demand you can switch to a different product. I have heard that there is stuff more potent than kalk but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. You could promote more evaporation in your system with a fan. Or start supplementing with a two part. Given that you don't have a lot of coral it is likely that you have higher alk demands than cal so it usually works out nicely to not have kalk replenish 100% of your alk anyhow. You could also keep using soda ash or go all in and get a calcium reactor. The options are limitless.

Are you thinking of esv that's what alot of people with a high bioload are using aswell as wholesalers... good stuff should definitely give it a try

 

[UnderseaOddities]

I'm at the point now where I'm like screw dosing we buy all this fancy stuff like a geo calcium reactor but is it as good as the kalk soda in an ato or 2 part it's all in what your system needs imo if water isnt an issue you can mix up salt at 1.025 with a cal of 420-440 mag of 1400 and do 10 to 35% water volume daily depending on bioload and uptake and eliminate the need ,but again it all depends on how much you wanna spend/save as well as available time.
You can dose by hand you can do daily wc you can have a dosing pump or old school kalk soda in ato, all in what's practical. Anything under 50g dont waste your time dose by hand ,50 -150 water change daily or three times a week depending on water volume test water daily or weekly depending on bioload . My alk sweet spot is 8.4 and can swing a point or two under depending if the system is getting freshwater. for 150 or larger there is no way to get around it you're gonna need a calcium reactor and maybe a dosing pump aswell if you wanna keep it stable


Just my 2 cents btw ive been dosing by hand daily since 2008 machines can fail regularly, if u make a mistake it's on you if you're dripping consistently in the sump and have your routine I guarantee you dosing by hand in any system under 120g is the best way to ensure that you have it dialed in after all you have eyes and hands an apex or jebao only has moving parts that can cake up causing inconsistencies in ml ratio,

The human is the ultimate machine capable of anything I believe a person and a ball valve make the best topoff aswell if you know your system! Screw a float valve I have my eyes they're cheap anyways and cause problems, eventually something will be off

 

[UnderseaOddities]

We live in crazy times some of us are literally skimming the nutrients out of the water and adding bottles... when we could just add another fish or two. It just goes to show how far technology has come that were given options to micromanage to pull optimum coloration and be anal retentive about such things...we used to see colonies at the lfs,now there calling frags "mini"colonies thanks to guys in manbuns and coralchop shops

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is not uncommon for limewater (kalkwasser) alone to not keep up with demand. With 2% of the tank volume in evaporation daily, you can add about 2.3 dKh per day. That assumes the limewater is saturated, which it often is not, especially with delivery from reactors, where it is sometimes quite low in potency.

For that reason, many folks use a two part or a CaCO3/CO2 reactor along with limewater.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We live in crazy times some of us are literally skimming the nutrients out of the water and adding bottles... when we could just add another fish or two. It just goes to show how far technology has come that were given options to micromanage to pull optimum coloration and be anal retentive about such things...we used to see colonies at the lfs,now there calling frags "mini"colonies thanks to guys in manbuns and coralchop shops

Skimmer do far more than keep nutrients in check.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you thinking of esv that's what alot of people with a high bioload are using aswell as wholesalers... good stuff should definitely give it a try

ESV is a fine two part, as are many other brands and DIY.

 

[sandfan85]

Once Kalk can no longer keep up with the demand you can switch to a different product. I have heard that there is stuff more potent than kalk but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. You could promote more evaporation in your system with a fan. Or start supplementing with a two part. Given that you don't have a lot of coral it is likely that you have higher alk demands than cal so it usually works out nicely to not have kalk replenish 100% of your alk anyhow. You could also keep using soda ash or go all in and get a calcium reactor. The options are limitless.

I already have a Ca Reactor, however, it drops my ph down to 7.8-7.9 Maybe I'll try the Ca Reactor and Kalk to help raise Ph. Hopefully this won't drive my Ca and Mag too high.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I already have a Ca Reactor, however, it drops my ph down to 7.8-7.9 Maybe I'll try the Ca Reactor and Kalk to help raise Ph. Hopefully this won't drive my Ca and Mag too high.

Base the dosing off alkalinity and the reactor will not boost calcium or magnesium too high, but long term use of limewater (kalkwasser) does tend to raise calcium if alkalinity is maintained.

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Calcium (Ca). In my reef aquarium, I use only Instant Ocean salt and I have not added any additional calcium except as limewater for a number of years (during which time I have continued regular 1% daily water changes). So why is my calcium level (472 mg/L) higher than one would normally expect for Instant Ocean (maybe between 350 and 400 mg/L)? That long term rise in calcium is actually the expected result when using limewater to maintain alkalinity.

Limewater adds calcium and alkalinity in exactly the same proportions as in pure calcium carbonate. So if that is what is used by corals to make skeletons, and what precipitates on pumps and such, then calcium would stay constant.

But both magnesium and strontium get into growing calcium carbonate crystals in place of some of the calcium. A few percent of the calcium is replaced this way. Consequently, since the same amount of alkalinity (the carbonate) is used over time, and somewhat less than the balancing amount of calcium, calcium rises if alkalinity is maintained. I’m happy to see the result match the theory, and the calcium level seems fine to me.

 

[blasterman]

ESV is a fine two part, as are many other brands and DIY.

If they are all fine why use the most expensive option?

With all due respect Randy i know and work with many chemical engineers and none would advocate commercial two part dosers unless they were playing a prank on a co worker.

Two part bottled dosers are literally the equivelant of buying pre wadded toilet paper.

A main reason people fail in this hobby is they don't have a fundamental understanding of what they are doing because of marketing hype. Baking soda and calcium chloride put in a plastic bottle and filled water is no different than getting those two ingredients dry and adding them yourself to water. I will happily run two reefs side by side with one using grocery store calcium and baking soda and the other with ESV and you know darn well there will be no difference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If they are all fine why use the most expensive option?

With all due respect Randy i know and work with many chemical engineers and none would advocate commercial two part dosers unless they were playing a prank on a co worker.

Two part bottled dosers are literally the equivelant of buying pre wadded toilet paper.

A main reason people fail in this hobby is they don't have a fundamental understanding of what they are doing because of marketing hype. Baking soda and calcium chloride put in a plastic bottle and filled water is no different than getting those two ingredients dry and adding them yourself to water. I will happily run two reefs side by side with one using grocery store calcium and baking soda and the other with ESV and you know darn well there will be no difference.

A good two or three part will prevent the increase in salinity from lowering ions such as potassium when you maintain salinity.

A DIY that does not include potassium will cause depletion of potassium over time. Same for every other ion it does not contain in adequate amounts.

 

[BoxKing]

Get a CO2 Scrubber to help raise and stabilize PH, then dose two part. You can really dial in PH using a scrubber, and there are many options on how to dial it in perfectly.

 

[Saltyreef]

If they are all fine why use the most expensive option?

With all due respect Randy i know and work with many chemical engineers and none would advocate commercial two part dosers unless they were playing a prank on a co worker.

Two part bottled dosers are literally the equivelant of buying pre wadded toilet paper.

A main reason people fail in this hobby is they don't have a fundamental understanding of what they are doing because of marketing hype. Baking soda and calcium chloride put in a plastic bottle and filled water is no different than getting those two ingredients dry and adding them yourself to water. I will happily run two reefs side by side with one using grocery store calcium and baking soda and the other with ESV and you know darn well there will be no difference.

Theres a big quality difference between BRS USP calcium chloride and ice melter in my experience.

My DIYs always come out tinted yellow or brown/cloudy.
With exception of the baking soda for alk that always mixes clear.
Its still not usp though.

Id much rather dose a USP additive thats guaranteed pure.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Theres a big quality difference between BRS USP calcium chloride and ice melter in my experience.

My DIYs always come out tinted yellow or brown/cloudy.
With exception of the baking soda for alk that always mixes clear.
Its still not usp though.

Id much rather dose a USP additive thats guaranteed pure.

Of course, that depends on the material used for the "ice melter".

In my tests of Dowflake from Home Depot, it actually matched exactly the impurity profile of products sold as high quality by Warner and ESV at the time. Certainly, all of these may have changed since then, but the point is that bulk material can be as high quality as purity labeled products, just without the assurance of a purity grade.

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-chemistry-purity-of-calcium-chloride/

 

[Saltyreef]

Of course, that depends on the material used for the "ice melter".

In my tests of Dowflake from Home Depot, it actually matched exactly the impurity profile of products sold as high quality by Warner and ESV at the time. Certainly, all of these may have changed since then, but the point is that bulk material can be as high quality as purity labeled products, just without the assurance of a purity grade.

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-chemistry-purity-of-calcium-chloride/

Agreed.
They dont sell that kind of stuff here at home depot on the west coast in california though

Hard to find good purity.
The closest i found was snow joe ice melter which mixes up tinted yellow but the unscented damprid i used was the most clear mixing solution. I just cant speak to the purity, but i know theres some unwanted substances in there.

I find it much easier to buy the bulk USP calcium from BRS vs spending time comparing sds info and searching high and low for a product that may or may not be in business 5 years down the road.

I think the only place i found deadseaworks mag was on etsy from a private seller who had 2 bags.

 

[arking_mark]

Just a couple of thoughts about pH and Alk as expressed by the OP:
1. It sounds like you were using a Ca Reactor and discontinued using it for Kalk dosing
2. Do you know how much the Alk/Ca the Ca Reactor was providing? How much Kalkwasser is providing? As Randy mentioned, reactors don't always provide saturated Kalk.
3. Increased pH will increase Ca/Alk consumption through both abiotic precipitation and coral uptake
4. If you are using a skimmer that is aerating your tank with indoor air which has high CO2, you are effectively driving down your pH
5. I found that at higher pH Kalkwasser was not able to keep up with demand. However, much of that demand was abiotic precipitation. I'm playing with All-for-Reef and Two/Three part solutions to see what I like best.