Kalkwasser for pH stability

[SCReef'n]

So I’m thinking of dosing kalk to increase my pH and stabilize the daily swings. Currently it’s running 7.5-8. I’d like to add it via my ato. I currently run triton and keep alk and calcium at 8.0 and 425 respectively. Is there a good calculator or method to determine how much saturated kalk solution to add to keep my alk and calcium within acceptable range while I do this?

 

[Billldg]

I am not sure if it possible to control all 3 parameters using Kalk. You would have to either dose by PH or by Alk/Cal numbers. Are you using a skimmer and have you tried to either run a line outside or use a C02 scrubber to raise your PH?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I would check your pH readings. 7.5 is not impossible to have in reef tanks, but it's a bit unusual.

I wouldn't dose limewater via ATO. I don't think ATOs are really appropriate to dose anything but fresh topoff water. Even that they sometimes fail to do correctly. Adding a potent alkalinity and pH booster to that mix has been problematic for many reefers. I would (and do) dose a set amount of saturated limewater ever hour to maintain the alkalinity I want. Topoff is handled separately.

When you say you run Triton, do you mean you use their additives? If so, dosing calcium hydroxide will take the place of some of that dosing and may reduce the amount of trace elements getting added back to your tank.

If you don't care about displacing some of your Triton dosing, I would dose saturated limewater every hour with a dosing pump. Keep an eye on your alkalinity to ensure you're not pushing it too high and watch your water level to make sure you're not dosing more limewater than your tank evaporates per day. If alkalinity and water level aren't an issue, you can dose as much or as little as you want over the course of the day to get your pH where you would like it.

 

[HuduVudu]

I’d like to add it via my ato

Better to get a Kalk reactor and then dose through that. Then the ATO can make up for the peaks in the top of.

Is there a good calculator or method to determine how much saturated kalk solution to add to keep my alk and calcium within acceptable range while I do this?

Because of variability of the CO2 in your anquarium used for the Kalk's carbonate production you can't really calculate. I would dose the Kalk and then use your other dosing methods to make up the difference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I’m thinking of dosing kalk to increase my pH and stabilize the daily swings. Currently it’s running 7.5-8. I’d like to add it via my ato. I currently run triton and keep alk and calcium at 8.0 and 425 respectively. Is there a good calculator or method to determine how much saturated kalk solution to add to keep my alk and calcium within acceptable range while I do this?

No calculator can tell you how much you need unless you know the daily alkalinity demand.

 

[SCReef'n]

To be clear. I want to se the kalk to increase my pH as much as possible. Without pushing my alk and calcium too high. So triton is doing the heavy lifting and providing the correct amount of trace elements and the kalk is pushing alk and cal to say 9 dkh and 450. While at the same time increasing pH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To be clear. I want to se the kalk to increase my pH as much as possible. Without pushing my alk and calcium too high. So triton is doing the heavy lifting and providing the correct amount of trace elements and the kalk is pushing alk and cal to say 9 dkh and 450. While at the same time increasing pH.

The effect of limewater on pH is about a boost of 0.6-0.7 pH units per 1.4 dKH added instantly.

If you spread that dosing out, or wait after dosing, the rise declines a lot. In some number of hours, the rise will be gone, so the way to think of it is a continual tug toward higher pH.

it is unlikely the pH will get too high if you replace all evaporated water with saturated kalkwasser.

You can always back off on the saturation level if the pH gets higher than you want.

 

[Dr. Jim]

If your goal is to raise the pH, it seems like you are going down the wrong road by using kalk to do that. I believe you would get much better results by concentrating on lowering the CO2 to your skimmer by running a line from the outside to the skimmer as Billdg suggested. If you can't do that for whatever reason, then a CO2 scrubber would be my second choice. (But the outside air is a lot cheaper and probably sufficient).

Then, I would use the kalk for other reasons: as a supplement to your Triton 4-part to add additional alkalinity with a doser. I'd set the Triton dosing to the maximum amount that the limiting part allows (Ca or Mg)...(i.e. keep raising your dosage until either the Ca or Mg reaches the level you want....(i.e. whichever one reaches it first). Then, if more alk is needed, adjust the kalk to provide that extra alkalinity. (The additional calcium will be minimal, but you can monitor that and adjust everything accordingly.) (This is exactly what I do).

 

[HuduVudu]

I just want to point out one pitfall with lines to the outside that people don't seem to be aware of.

If you are pulling in air by force into your what will ultimately be your house, you create a positive pressure inside of your house. This will act as a back pressure to your inlet hose. If this positive pressure isn't relieved through some means like opening the door (which may not happen at night) then it will raise to equilibrium thereby nullifying the air inlet. The size of the air space in the house effects this also, so bigger airspaces take longer to pressurize. Another consequence is that a slower airflow can invite unwanted guests to take residence in your inlet. The may not be a consideration in some areas of the country but for me in TX, it is an issue.

Just wanted to throw that out there for people considering this idea.

 

[C. Eymann]

Better to get a Kalk reactor and then dose through that. Then the ATO can make up for the peaks in the top of.


Because of variability of the CO2 in your anquarium used for the Kalk's carbonate production you can't really calculate. I would dose the Kalk and then use your other dosing methods to make up the difference.

^^ +1

the variable of dissolved CO2 in your system vs another makes the idea of a direct calculation basically impossible.

Every system will have its dkh impacted differently than other in ratio of kalkwasser/per system gal/24hr period.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I just want to point out one pitfall with lines to the outside that people don't seem to be aware of.

If you are pulling in air by force into your what will ultimately be your house, you create a positive pressure inside of your house. This will act as a back pressure to your inlet hose. If this positive pressure isn't relieved through some means like opening the door (which may not happen at night) then it will raise to equilibrium thereby nullifying the air inlet. The size of the air space in the house effects this also, so bigger airspaces take longer to pressurize. Another consequence is that a slower airflow can invite unwanted guests to take residence in your inlet. The may not be a consideration in some areas of the country but for me in TX, it is an issue.

Just wanted to throw that out there for people considering this idea.

Has this idea of "back pressure in the inlet hose nullifying the air inlet" been proven, or is it just your theory? If that was the case, wouldn't we see the effect of that by noting fewer bubbles in the skimmer? If so, I've never seen that with mine nor heard anyone mention it and, frankly, that seems hard to believe.

As far as critters getting in, maybe a screen over the opening would be a good idea. I also have a (home-made) inline carbon reactor to filter fumes from lawn chemicals, mowers, etc.

 

[HuduVudu]

Has this idea of "back pressure in the inlet hose nullifying the air inlet" been proven, or is it just your theory? If that was the case, wouldn't we see the effect of that by noting fewer bubbles in the skimmer?

Theory (Please read all of my post carefully before you respond not that I don't think that you wouldn't )

I don't think you would see fewer bubbles in the skimmer, perhaps less bubbles in the aggregate with less skimmate. Possible too depending on how the line is set up, the line might not be leak proof and would just end up pulling indoor air from leaks in the line (push connects don't work with vacuums I found that out the hard way). Also how would say a spider manage to set up shop in a line that is pulling air in? I have seen that complained about. Plus I have seen that people have diminishing results doing this. Most people usually do it in conjunction with the CO2 scrubber and it seems that the scrubber is doing the heavy lifting because after a time they pull their hoses and leave the scrubber without any change. Small sample size but it's what I have.

If so, I've never seen that with mine nor heard anyone mention it and, frankly, that seems hard to believe.

Honestly all that is really happening with this mechanically is that you are running the equivalent of a small muffin fan in the window. Without a place for the air to escape then the fan is essentially spinning and nothing is happening. I air my house from time to time and I use a big fan to do it. Sometimes I run the fan with the windows closed first for a minute because I want to start the fan and then I walk to the windows to open them. You can hear the fan pushing against the positive pressure, as soon as I open one window then the sound of the fan changes and the air starts to move. One last example imagine that your PC case (if you still have one of those) didn't have any vent holes and only had fans pushing air into the case. How well do you think that this would cool your computer?

I don't think that this is hard to believe if you reduce it to the primary actions taking place. Based on the observations of people's comments over the years and my own view of the mechanics of what is happening I believe that this is a red herring. Don't get me wrong, indoor air quality impacts are tanks significantly, I just think that this method doesn't work.

Thanks for listening. In the end it doesn't really matter, and I could be totally wrong, but for now I think that I am right