Lanthanum Chloride Questions

[Rst]

I have been dosing Lanthanum for the last 45 days on a daily basis. I use the Apex DOS doser with a 1 gallon solution of RO water and 50ml of Lanthanum. Doing so, allows my phosphous to keep between 15 ppb - 40 ppb. My phosphous was over 180 ppb before I started using Lanthanum.

1. Should I expect to continue dosing on a permanent basis in order to keep my phosphous down to normal levels? I thought by now that my phosphous levels would eventually remain low, requiring less & less Lanthanum and that I wouldn't need to dose Lanthanum nearly as frequently. Really surprised by my results.

2. My freshly made RO water has a slight amount of phosphous, approx 30 ppb. When mixed with my fresh salt mix, it remains around 30ppb. Is this normal or should my phosphous be closer to zero?

3. Does anybody else know if Lanthanum Chloride solution is safe to use with my Apex DOS? Neptune includes a note stating:

"Do NOT use the DOS with solvents or with fluids that contain solvents or with fluids that may be reactive with acylic, such as methanol"

 

[jsker]

1. Should I expect to continue dosing on a permanent basis in order to keep my phosphous down to normal levels? I thought by now that my phosphous levels would eventually remain low, requiring less & less Lanthanum and that I wouldn't need to dose Lanthanum nearly as frequently. Really surprised by my results.

I have read were some dose all the time and so do not. I have also read that dosing Lanthanum Chloride all the time slow down coral growth. I have and do dosing Lanthanum Chloride from time to time when my Phosphates creep up but not all the time. I also run GFO in a reactor to keep my phosphates were I like them at .03 to .04 ppm

2. My freshly made RO water has a slight amount of phosphous, approx 30 ppb. When mixed with my fresh salt mix, it remains around 30ppb. Is this normal or should my phosphous be closer to zero?

What are you testing your phosphates with?

3. Does anybody else know if Lanthanum Chloride solution is safe to use with my Apex DOS? Neptune includes a note stating:

Not a problem since the hoses in the head are silicone. One can alway order silicone tubing to replace the PVC tubing the comes with the unit for a safe dosing experience.

IMO that Alk solution is more corrosive to the lines that methanol. I have replaced my PVC/Air line tubing only on my alk dosing line

 

[Muttley000]

If also only used it when I had to. Over a couple years I think I finally sucked it out of my rock. I would dose to bring it down and then stop and wait for it to come up before dosing again. It kept taking longer and longer to come back up before it finally stopped.

 

[Rst]

I have read were some dose all the time and so do not. I have also read that dosing Lanthanum Chloride all the time slow down coral growth. I have and do dosing Lanthanum Chloride from time to time when my Phosphates creep up but not all the time. I also run GFO in a reactor to keep my phosphates were I like them at .03 to .04 ppm


What are you testing your phosphates with?


Not a problem since the hoses in the head are silicone. One can alway order silicone tubing to replace the PVC tubing the comes with the unit for a safe dosing experience.

IMO that Alk solution is more corrosive to the lines that methanol. I have replaced my PVC/Air line tubing only on my alk dosing line

Hi jsker,
Thanks for your reply. Always helpful when someone else shares their experiences.

I have also tried using GFO in my sump before trying Lanthanum, but could never get my phosphates low. I currently use Hanna's Phosohorus Utra Low Range kit to measure my phosphorus levels. No matter how much, or what brand or how many times I used GFO in my sump, my phosphorus would remain high around 200 ppb. So results that I now get with Lanthanum are much lower, but appear to require constant dosing.

I suspect that there is some underlying cause of my phosphates continuously creeping a little higher each day, in spite of my daily Lanthanum usage. In my case, I prepare a new batch of 50 ml of Lanthanum in 1 gallon of RO water jar and then dose 500 ml/day of this solution starting at the beginning of each weak. On the 1st day my reading is around 15 ppb, next day, 20, then, 25, and so on, until all of the entire 1 gallon solution needs replenishing. My challenge is to try to find out where all of the phosphate is coming from. Maybe my RO maker is somehow no working as it should or maybe my live rock and gravel have so much phosphate that my levels will never be low?

My question about the Apex DOS warning was actually wondering if Lanthanum Chloride could be considered a solvent and therefore be damaging my DOS.

Thanks again for your input,
Ron

 

[jsker]

Hi jsker,
Thanks for your reply. Always helpful when someone else shares their experiences.

I have also tried using GFO in my sump before trying Lanthanum, but could never get my phosphates low. I currently use Hanna's Phosohorus Utra Low Range kit to measure my phosphorus levels. No matter how much, or what brand or how many times I used GFO in my sump, my phosphorus would remain high around 200 ppb. So results that I now get with Lanthanum are much lower, but appear to require constant dosing.

I suspect that there is some underlying cause of my phosphates continuously creeping a little higher each day, in spite of my daily Lanthanum usage. In my case, I prepare a new batch of 50 ml of Lanthanum in 1 gallon of RO water jar and then dose 500 ml/day of this solution starting at the beginning of each weak. On the 1st day my reading is around 15 ppb, next day, 20, then, 25, and so on, until all of the entire 1 gallon solution needs replenishing. My challenge is to try to find out where all of the phosphate is coming from. Maybe my RO maker is somehow no working as it should or maybe my live rock and gravel have so much phosphate that my levels will never be low?

My question about the Apex DOS warning was actually wondering if Lanthanum Chloride could be considered a solvent and therefore be damaging my DOS.

Thanks again for your input,
Ron

Ron,

How old is your system?

Did you use live rock or dry rock? The reason I ask this is that I have read and experienced myself with new rock comes high phosphates until they leach out of the rock.

I was having a issue with phosphates in my first year of my current system like yourself. That is when I started doing Lanthanum. I also have the Hanna ULR phosphorus checker and I tested zero yesterday. That is very rare. I have been dealing with cyano for two years off and on, with high nitrates. I decided to cut my feeding twice in half, I now feed a half a teaspoon instead of a full teaspoon. I only feed frozen. My phosphates have gone from .06 or 20 ppb to O, just by measuring and cutting my feeding. My nitrate have also dropped by half too. I am going to double check my readings in 2 hour just to make sure.

My cyano is starving out slowly, but I will have to get my phosphate back up to 9 or 10 ppb or 2.4 to 3. That is were my system is happy.

You are welcome, Jeffrey

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The phosphate in your top off water is too low to be important. You add far, far more each day in foods.

Lanthanum chloride solution won’t hurt tubing or dosing pumps.

 

[Rst]

If also only used it when I had to. Over a couple years I think I finally sucked it out of my rock. I would dose to bring it down and then stop and wait for it to come up before dosing again. It kept taking longer and longer to come back up before it finally stopped.

Hi Muttley,
I wonder if I will ever suck out it out of my rock. Is sucking it all out really possible? If it takes a couple of years, I am going to need a lot more Lanthanum and many more 5 micron filter bags.
I also replace one large 36” filter bag every 2 weeks. Currently dosing 50 to 60 ml per week in a 150 gallon system.

So far (approximately 45 days so far), if I stop dosing Lanthanum for even 1 day, it jumps back up! Even though I am dosing daily, it still goings up slowly every day.

This is getting to be a lot of work. Thanks for sharing you experiences,
Ron

 

[Rst]

The phosphate in your top off water is too low to be important. You add far, far more each day in foods.

Lanthanum chloride solution won’t hurt tubing or dosing pumps.

Hi Randy,
Good to know that Lanthanum won’t damage my DOS.

Also I forgot about all the food I am feeding my fish. Currently the automatic feeder, feeds approximately 1/4 tsp pellets, 7 times a day. My fish include 3 very big tangs, all over 6” long, not counting many smaller fish. I always worry that they don’t get enough food.

Thanks for the reminder,
Ron

 

[KrisReef]

Oops, wrong location.

 

[Dr. Reef]

i have been using LC for over 2 years now. It have never damaged my DOS or before DOS cheap chinese dosing pumps.
I started with 1 gal rodi mixed with 10ml of SeaKlear made for aquarium use (discontinued). over 2 years i finally have phos down to 0 and they stay 0 at first i dosed less and less. i started with 5ml per day then 3 then 1ml per day till towards the end i was only doing 3 drops per day. now i dont dose for 2-3 weeks at a time and hos remain o-0.02 range. dose a few drops again and 2-3 weeks more go by.
my current solution is 1 gal rodi with 1/2oz of LC.

 

[Rst]

i have been using LC for over 2 years now. It have never damaged my DOS or before DOS cheap chinese dosing pumps.
I started with 1 gal rodi mixed with 10ml of SeaKlear made for aquarium use (discontinued). over 2 years i finally have phos down to 0 and they stay 0 at first i dosed less and less. i started with 5ml per day then 3 then 1ml per day till towards the end i was only doing 3 drops per day. now i dont dose for 2-3 weeks at a time and hos remain o-0.02 range. dose a few drops again and 2-3 weeks more go by.
my current solution is 1 gal rodi with 1/2oz of LC.

Hi Doc,
You started at 10ml, but I need 5 or 6 times that amount every gallon just to try and stay below 20 - 40 ppb Phosphorus. My system is approximately 150 gallons. I don’t know why I need so much.
Thanks for providing your experience,
Ron

 

[Rst]

Ron,

How old is your system?

Did you use live rock or dry rock? The reason I ask this is that I have read and experienced myself with new rock comes high phosphates until they leach out of the rock.

I was having a issue with phosphates in my first year of my current system like yourself. That is when I started doing Lanthanum. I also have the Hanna ULR phosphorus checker and I tested zero yesterday. That is very rare. I have been dealing with cyano for two years off and on, with high nitrates. I decided to cut my feeding twice in half, I now feed a half a teaspoon instead of a full teaspoon. I only feed frozen. My phosphates have gone from .06 or 20 ppb to O, just by measuring and cutting my feeding. My nitrate have also dropped by half too. I am going to double check my readings in 2 hour just to make sure.

My cyano is starving out slowly, but I will have to get my phosphate back up to 9 or 10 ppb or 2.4 to 3. That is were my system is happy.

You are welcome, Jeffrey

Hi Jeffrey,
My system is approx 150 gallons and 15 years old. I don’t really remember, but I think I used 200 lbs live rock. I do believe that my rock is a major source of my high phosphate. Or maybe I feed too much food (see my other posts). Until I get my phosphates under control, I won’t try some SPS corals. Just stick with soft corals & fish for now. I wish I had your zero phosphate problem.

I also have had cyano issues that mostly shows up on my back wall. I just clean it off from time to time.

Ron

 

[Reefahholic]

If you are constantly at 180 ppb, you may be feeding too much or something is leaching. An established reef usually doesn’t run that high depending on export methods used.

I’ve had two different kinds of dry rock leach. The first leached for nearly 6 months and that was with constant LaCI dosing to knock it down. The second time (dealing with it now) started to leach after about a month in the system. I’ve used this rock before and didn’t have any problems, but not that lucky this time. My levels have been 0.3 - 0.6. At first PO4 was staying at 0.1 or under. Currently at 0.5 and just dosed to get it under 0.2. That’s my max for a new system because anything over 0.3-0.4 and the tank starts getting funky. I knocked them down pretty aggressively tonight and hoping it’s under 0.1 in the morning. Just checked ALK and it dipped slightly from 9.9 yesterday to 9.7 today. If I can keep PO4 under 0.1, I’m happy with that being it’s a new tank (2 months).

 

[Reefahholic]

Ohh and the reason I feel like it’s leaching is because I’ll knock it down from 0.5 - 0.6 to about 0.1 and without feeding anything- the levels return by the next day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ohh and the reason I feel like it’s leaching is because I’ll knock it down from 0.5 - 0.6 to about 0.1 and without feeding anything- the levels return by the next day.

Even a 100% water change fails for that reason. If there is phosphate in the water, the rock will bind it. It is not a sign of bad or contaminated rock. Ant calcium carbonate surface does it.

 

[Reefahholic]

Here’s what the tank starts looking like when it gets over 0.3

 

[Reefahholic]

Even a 100% water change fails for that reason. If there is phosphate in the water, the rock will bind it. It is not a sign of bad or contaminated rock. Ant calcium carbonate surface does it.

So you don’t think it’s leaching? I haven’t had numbers this elevated in the past.

Not sure what’s going on. Maybe something died in the rocks.

 

[Rst]

Ohh and the reason I feel like it’s leaching is because I’ll knock it down from 0.5 - 0.6 to about 0.1 and without feeding anything- the levels return by the next day.

Hi Reefahholic,
Exactly what happens in my tank, knock it down and the next day it’s right back up. Frustrating.

Ron

 

[jsker]

Hi Jeffrey,
My system is approx 150 gallons and 15 years old. I don’t really remember, but I think I used 200 lbs live rock. I do believe that my rock is a major source of my high phosphate. Or maybe I feed too much food (see my other posts). Until I get my phosphates under control, I won’t try some SPS corals. Just stick with soft corals & fish for now. I wish I had your zero phosphate problem.

I also have had cyano issues that mostly shows up on my back wall. I just clean it off from time to time.

Ron

Ron

That rules out that direction, I was thinking. let me read some more.

 

[Rst]

Even a 100% water change fails for that reason. If there is phosphate in the water, the rock will bind it. It is not a sign of bad or contaminated rock. Ant calcium carbonate surface does it.

Randy,

So if the rock isn’t responsible for leaking the phosphate and calcium carbonate surface binds it, should I even expect that that there will come a time when I will be able keep phosphate low without daily doses of lanthanum? Occasional dosing once in awhile would be understandable. Not clear on how to attack this problem. Will reducing my feeding and continue daily dosing lanthanum lead to eventually dosing only occasionally?