Light & Flow: the trial and error method

[pseudorand]

I know this is likely the most asked question on this forum, but I've failed to find a good answer: how do I determine where to put my new zoas?

Specifically, I'd like to put them somewhere, and move them if they're "unhappy". But how do I know if they're unhappy? Opening up, obviously, but:
- should I expect happy zoas to be open any time the lights are on? (Cuc activity aside, of course)
- What else do I look for?
+ Coloration, or does that have more to do with my light color and my eyes?
+ Bugs? Can I see the common ones with the naked eye? Do arthropods bother them during the day?
- When I put them in one location, how long do I leave them before trying a new one?
- Are there any other params easy to rule out before location? Obviously temp, salinity, alk, nitrate and phosphate must be in the usual ranges and "stable", but are there any particular params or ranges known to make zoas close up that wouldn't also show up in my other corals?
- In the longer term, should I move them if I don't see growth? How long should it take to start seeing new polyps?

I of course have a bunch of new frags in QT that aren't open this morning, so I'm trying to come up with a plan rather than just moving them around at random and having my impatience be what keeps them closed. The instructions from Top Shelf Aquatic say they're all low flow, low light, but various R2R Forums claim the opposite.

 

[Reefing_addiction]

This person may know

@footgal

I can say from all my reading some zoas grow fast some slow. Single polyps take longer to start producing that much I know

 

[PicassoClown04]

Hi! So your question is basically boiled down to “Where should I put my zoas?” The answer is pretty simple, they want medium light with enough flow so the skirts move a little. If you drop some reefroids on them with the flow on, the reefroids should take about 2 seconds to drift past the zoas.

If you see umbrella zoas (center is higher up than skirts) or tall stems developing, the zoa is politely asking for more light. Here’s an example of tall stems

If your zoas are closed, that usually means too much light or too much flow or both. If you notice the zoas open only in the morning or evening while your lights are dimming, it’s a light issue. If the zoas don’t open at all, more likely a flow issue. They can be acclimated to higher light by moving them 1/2”-1” higher every 1-2 weeks until the desired level is reached. I usually use a magnetic frag rack to do this.

Zoas that are lacking color is usually not enough nutrients in the tank. Feed your fish a little heavier, maybe do some reefroids, and if you’re dosing something like vibrant maybe try a half dose instead. They will regain color over a couple weeks.

You can easily check for pests by doing a simple hydrogen peroxide dip. 3% hydrogen peroxide from your local Walgreens is perfect. 1:1 ratio of H2O2:tank water for 1 minute. This will kill algae and pests without harming the zoa. Dip in a clear container on a white background (I use a urine sample cup or water glass on a piece of paper) so you can see if any gross critters fall out of the zoa. It will probably take about 1-3 days for the zoa to reopen and bubbles and slime will form so don’t panic when that happens.

All zoas grow at different rates. Cheaper beginner zoas like Mohawks, Pandora’s, nuclear green, dragon eyes, eagle eyes, scrambled eggs, etc will usually grow a lot faster than higher end zoas. For refrance, my dragon eyes pop about 3-5 new heads per month. I am running a high nutrient system with reefroids 1-3x per week just depending on how much time I have. My blue hornets give me about 1 polyp per month and my higher ends like inception, beauty and the beast, and pink hippos give me 1 every 2ish months. Giving them more nutrients will help them grow faster but it’s a delicate balance between high nutrients and an algae factory.

If you have any more questions/concerns/observations please don’t hesitate to ask!

 

[pseudorand]

Hi! So your question is basically boiled down to “Where should I put my zoas?” The answer is pretty simple, they want medium light with enough flow so the skirts move a little. If you drop some reefroids on them with the flow on, the reefroids should take about 2 seconds to drift past the zoas.

If you see umbrella zoas (center is higher up than skirts) or tall stems developing, the zoa is politely asking for more light. Here’s an example of tall stems

If your zoas are closed, that usually means too much light or too much flow or both. If you notice the zoas open only in the morning or evening while your lights are dimming, it’s a light issue. If the zoas don’t open at all, more likely a flow issue. They can be acclimated to higher light by moving them 1/2”-1” higher every 1-2 weeks until the desired level is reached. I usually use a magnetic frag rack to do this.

Zoas that are lacking color is usually not enough nutrients in the tank. Feed your fish a little heavier, maybe do some reefroids, and if you’re dosing something like vibrant maybe try a half dose instead. They will regain color over a couple weeks.

You can easily check for pests by doing a simple hydrogen peroxide dip. 3% hydrogen peroxide from your local Walgreens is perfect. 1:1 ratio of H2O2:tank water for 1 minute. This will kill algae and pests without harming the zoa. Dip in a clear container on a white background (I use a urine sample cup or water glass on a piece of paper) so you can see if any gross critters fall out of the zoa. It will probably take about 1-3 days for the zoa to reopen and bubbles and slime will form so don’t panic when that happens.

All zoas grow at different rates. Cheaper beginner zoas like Mohawks, Pandora’s, nuclear green, dragon eyes, eagle eyes, scrambled eggs, etc will usually grow a lot faster than higher end zoas. For refrance, my dragon eyes pop about 3-5 new heads per month. I am running a high nutrient system with reefroids 1-3x per week just depending on how much time I have. My blue hornets give me about 1 polyp per month and my higher ends like inception, beauty and the beast, and pink hippos give me 1 every 2ish months. Giving them more nutrients will help them grow faster but it’s a delicate balance between high nutrients and an algae factory.

If you have any more questions/concerns/observations please don’t hesitate to ask!

Wow. Amazing info, and I have lots to try now, much better than random guess and check.

The problem is an have 6 different types right next to each other on the frag rack in my QT. Some are extending like they need more light. Some open only part of the days some looked fine, but then changed their minds and won't open the past few days. I'm going to move them around based on your advice above and take careful notes about when they open.

But is it consistent with your experience that different types have different requirements?

Also, do they bother each other/are they aggressive? I assumed no since people do zoa gardens, but perhaps some varieties are.

 

[PicassoClown04]

Wow. Amazing info, and I have lots to try now, much better than random guess and check.

The problem is an have 6 different types right next to each other on the frag rack in my QT. Some are extending like they need more light. Some open only part of the days some looked fine, but then changed their minds and won't open the past few days. I'm going to move them around based on your advice above and take careful notes about when they open.

But is it consistent with your experience that different types have different requirements?

Also, do they bother each other/are they aggressive? I assumed no since people do zoa gardens, but perhaps some varieties are.

Zoas will not bother each other! They can touch other varieties with no issues and mine do it all the time.

Different zoas do have different lighting wants and needs. Mostly depending on two factors. Where they were naturally collected (shallow water or deepwater) and the tank they were in before you. Many zoas do perfect in the average reef tank so I don’t worry too much about the natural collection thing, the biggest factor will be the tank they came from. If the zoas came from a tank that was darker than yours, the zoas may need an acclimation period to adjust to higher lights. This can be done through your light’s embedded acclimation mode, those are pretty common these days. Or you can turn it down to 75% intensity and turn it up 10% every 1-3 weeks which is the same as moving a zoa to higher light via a frag rack. I find that this is the most common reason for new zoas to do poorly while other zoas are perfectly fine.
Some zoas will naturally want more light than others, and that’s just fine. Here’s an example. These are some zoas in my tank, I’m calling them Neon Cherry Bombs. As you can see, they have very elongated stalks that are obviously wanting more light. Yet the JF cry babies right next to them have barely any stalks at all and seem to be very happy

and only a few inches to the left, we have all of these zoas. None of them are begging for light either. (You can also see how the Mohican Suns, scrambled eggs, and utter chaos are all touching)

Therefore, we can conclude that my lighting isn’t too low because 50 varieties of zoas are very happy with the lighting. The Neon Cherry Bombs are an anomaly zoa that want more light than the average zoa. It also goes the other way where there are zoas that want less light than average. Just keep an eye out for the signs

 

[pseudorand]

So what would you do with the frag on the left in the pic below?

It's been the the tank for 2 weeks now. They were opening nicely for the first week, but have changed their minds. They should be the same species as the frag to the right which seems to be opening fine. I tried multiple positions on that level -- same results. Higher up will be even more flow and he's not stretching so I don't think it's a light issue.

 

[PicassoClown04]

So what would you do with the frag on the left in the pic below?

It's been the the tank for 2 weeks now. They were opening nicely for the first week, but have changed their minds. They should be the same species as the frag to the right which seems to be opening fine. I tried multiple positions on that level -- same results. Higher up will be even more flow and he's not stretching so I don't think it's a light issue.

That sounds irritation based. Check for algae on the polyps and dip for pests

 

[dbowman5]

Hi! So your question is basically boiled down to “Where should I put my zoas?” The answer is pretty simple, they want medium light with enough flow so the skirts move a little. If you drop some reefroids on them with the flow on, the reefroids should take about 2 seconds to drift past the zoas.

If you see umbrella zoas (center is higher up than skirts) or tall stems developing, the zoa is politely asking for more light. Here’s an example of tall stems

If your zoas are closed, that usually means too much light or too much flow or both. If you notice the zoas open only in the morning or evening while your lights are dimming, it’s a light issue. If the zoas don’t open at all, more likely a flow issue. They can be acclimated to higher light by moving them 1/2”-1” higher every 1-2 weeks until the desired level is reached. I usually use a magnetic frag rack to do this.

Zoas that are lacking color is usually not enough nutrients in the tank. Feed your fish a little heavier, maybe do some reefroids, and if you’re dosing something like vibrant maybe try a half dose instead. They will regain color over a couple weeks.

You can easily check for pests by doing a simple hydrogen peroxide dip. 3% hydrogen peroxide from your local Walgreens is perfect. 1:1 ratio of H2O2:tank water for 1 minute. This will kill algae and pests without harming the zoa. Dip in a clear container on a white background (I use a urine sample cup or water glass on a piece of paper) so you can see if any gross critters fall out of the zoa. It will probably take about 1-3 days for the zoa to reopen and bubbles and slime will form so don’t panic when that happens.

All zoas grow at different rates. Cheaper beginner zoas like Mohawks, Pandora’s, nuclear green, dragon eyes, eagle eyes, scrambled eggs, etc will usually grow a lot faster than higher end zoas. For refrance, my dragon eyes pop about 3-5 new heads per month. I am running a high nutrient system with reefroids 1-3x per week just depending on how much time I have. My blue hornets give me about 1 polyp per month and my higher ends like inception, beauty and the beast, and pink hippos give me 1 every 2ish months. Giving them more nutrients will help them grow faster but it’s a delicate balance between high nutrients and an algae factory.

If you have any more questions/concerns/observations please don’t hesitate to ask!

do these indications apply to paly's too?

 

[pseudorand]

That sounds irritation based. Check for algae on the polyps and dip for pests

They were dipped in coral RX and bayer prior to introduction. Will the peroxide dip you recommend do more than that?

It could be something already in the tank from snails, hermits, emerald crab or chaeto from my DT, in which case I could dip again but those bugs would still be in the tank. So such hitchhikers travel on inverts/macroalgae?

 

[PicassoClown04]

They were dipped in coral RX and bayer prior to introduction. Will the peroxide dip you recommend do more than that?

It could be something already in the tank from snails, hermits, emerald crab or chaeto from my DT, in which case I could dip again but those bugs would still be in the tank. So such hitchhikers travel on inverts/macroalgae?

The hydrogen dip would probably help. Or at least rule out algae/pests. Pests can come in on anything, they’re pretty much guaranteed to get in no matter what you try to do to stop them. I’d dip then leave it alone for 3-5 days in low-medium flow to let it recover. Hopefully whatever it is gets killed by the dip and the zoas can be happy and healthy

 

[pseudorand]

The hydrogen dip would probably help. Or at least rule out algae/pests. Pests can come in on anything, they’re pretty much guaranteed to get in no matter what you try to do to stop them. I’d dip then leave it alone for 3-5 days in low-medium flow to let it recover. Hopefully whatever it is gets killed by the dip and the zoas can be happy and healthy

Good call. In closer inspection, there's bubble algae on the frag plug. That bothers me as much as it does my zoas. I'll scrape it off and rinse it outside the tank. Any idea if the peroxide dip helps with bubble algae?

 

[PicassoClown04]

Good call. In closer inspection, there's bubble algae on the frag plug. That bothers me as much as it does my zoas. I'll scrape it off and rinse it outside the tank. Any idea if the peroxide dip helps with bubble algae?

It should kill it. I put the zoa in the peroxide then pop the bubbles. The peroxide kills the spores

 

[MarkS]

Hi! So your question is basically boiled down to “Where should I put my zoas?” The answer is pretty simple, they want medium light with enough flow so the skirts move a little. If you drop some reefroids on them with the flow on, the reefroids should take about 2 seconds to drift past the zoas.

If you see umbrella zoas (center is higher up than skirts) or tall stems developing, the zoa is politely asking for more light. Here’s an example of tall stems

If your zoas are closed, that usually means too much light or too much flow or both. If you notice the zoas open only in the morning or evening while your lights are dimming, it’s a light issue. If the zoas don’t open at all, more likely a flow issue. They can be acclimated to higher light by moving them 1/2”-1” higher every 1-2 weeks until the desired level is reached. I usually use a magnetic frag rack to do this.

Zoas that are lacking color is usually not enough nutrients in the tank. Feed your fish a little heavier, maybe do some reefroids, and if you’re dosing something like vibrant maybe try a half dose instead. They will regain color over a couple weeks.

You can easily check for pests by doing a simple hydrogen peroxide dip. 3% hydrogen peroxide from your local Walgreens is perfect. 1:1 ratio of H2O2:tank water for 1 minute. This will kill algae and pests without harming the zoa. Dip in a clear container on a white background (I use a urine sample cup or water glass on a piece of paper) so you can see if any gross critters fall out of the zoa. It will probably take about 1-3 days for the zoa to reopen and bubbles and slime will form so don’t panic when that happens.

All zoas grow at different rates. Cheaper beginner zoas like Mohawks, Pandora’s, nuclear green, dragon eyes, eagle eyes, scrambled eggs, etc will usually grow a lot faster than higher end zoas. For refrance, my dragon eyes pop about 3-5 new heads per month. I am running a high nutrient system with reefroids 1-3x per week just depending on how much time I have. My blue hornets give me about 1 polyp per month and my higher ends like inception, beauty and the beast, and pink hippos give me 1 every 2ish months. Giving them more nutrients will help them grow faster but it’s a delicate balance between high nutrients and an algae factory.

If you have any more questions/concerns/observations please don’t hesitate to ask!

Ty for a great reply

 

[pseudorand]

All zoas grow at different rates. Cheaper beginner zoas like Mohawks, Pandora’s, nuclear green, dragon eyes, eagle eyes, scrambled eggs, etc will usually grow a lot faster than higher end zoas. For refrance, my dragon eyes pop about 3-5 new heads per month. I am running a high nutrient system with reefroids 1-3x per week just depending on how much time I have. My blue hornets give me about 1 polyp per month and my higher ends like inception, beauty and the beast, and pink hippos give me 1 every 2ish months.

The heads per month thing seems strange to me. Shouldn't growth be exponential -- how many heads her month should depends on the size of the colony, no? I expect not too much from my 3 polyp frag, but would a 3-dozen polyp colony not pop a few heads in the time the smaller colony only pops one?

 

[pseudorand]

It should kill it. I put the zoa in the peroxide then pop the bubbles. The peroxide kills the spores

So it's been over a week since the H2O2 dip and no change. The second frag I thought was ok is now doing worse. A few heads try to open every now and then, but not for long.

@footgal , what next? 3 minutes of H2O2?

A the ones on my top rack do close from time to time, but I'm not too concerned yet. Should I dip those too as a preventative?

 

[PicassoClown04]

So it's been over a week since the H2O2 dip and no change. The second frag I thought was ok is now doing worse. A few heads try to open every now and then, but not for long.

@footgal , what next? 3 minutes of H2O2?

A the ones on my top rack do close from time to time, but I'm not too concerned yet. Should I dip those too as a preventative?

If multiple frags aren’t doing well, there might be another cause. Have you seen any pests? You did some dips right as they arrived for pests plus the H2O2 dip should’ve taken care of that stuff. Notice any predatory asterina stars, nudis, amphipods, etc? It shouldn’t be algae or bacterial now that you’ve H2O2 dipped. If the whole tank is starting to go downhill a little, I would test your water to make sure it’s not a parameter issue and maybe run some carbon just in case a contaminate got in there accidentally

 

[PicassoClown04]

do these indications apply to paly's too?

Hi, sorry I just scrolled back through this thread. Yes, those indications do apply to palys as well; sorry, I don’t really say zoas and palys because people usually just lump them together as zoas. Zoas and palys look and behave almost exactly the same so 99% of advise given about zoas can be applicable towards palys as well

 

[PicassoClown04]

The heads per month thing seems strange to me. Shouldn't growth be exponential -- how many heads her month should depends on the size of the colony, no? I expect not too much from my 3 polyp frag, but would a 3-dozen polyp colony not pop a few heads in the time the smaller colony only pops one?

The heads per month thing is really the only way I can measure my colony growth because I haven’t had my frags long enough to measure them over a longer period of time than just a couple months. For the most part, I’m trying to see how many babies one mature polyp can produce in one month which is a good method for me because a lot of my frags start as one polyp. You’re right that as a colony grows, you’re gonna get more babies per month (assuming conditions are all good) but the polyps in the middle of the colony will stop producing babies because there’s no more space. So in a colony of 10 zoas, there may only be 6 that can actually produce babies since they’re on the outside. So that’s where the babies per polyp per month rule goes awry, because under that rule if your zoa produces 2 babies per month and you have 10 polyps then you should have 20 new zoas; but since only 6 polyps are actually able to produce, you’ll actually only have 12 new babies at the end of the month .

 

[pseudorand]

If multiple frags aren’t doing well, there might be another cause. Have you seen any pests? You did some dips right as they arrived for pests plus the H2O2 dip should’ve taken care of that stuff. Notice any predatory asterina stars, nudis, amphipods, etc? It shouldn’t be algae or bacterial now that you’ve H2O2 dipped. If the whole tank is starting to go downhill a little, I would test your water to make sure it’s not a parameter issue and maybe run some carbon just in case a contaminate got in there accidentally

I dipped in H2O2 for 1 minute, but I've read some folks do 3 minutes. Any experience with that long of a dip?

The rest of the tank seems fine. It's my invert QT. It's been wet for almost 2 months, and during that time I went a bit overboard. The zoas are the only things that seem to be unhappy.

I have 3 sources of zoas:

1. Local seller: 2 frags, mixed variety, unknown name. These are the ones pictured that have been closed for over a week.
2. LFS: 1 frag, flavor unknown. Closed sometimes, but seems mostly ok.
3. Top Shelf Aquatics: 4 frags (smurfetts, nirvana, pandora, WWC bloodsuckers). Smurfetts close from time to time, but nothing I would worry about if the other zoas weren't having trouble. Nirvanas have two white spots on the stalk that really do look like spirorbid worms, but I've never heard of those growing on the flesh of something else. And the nirvanas seem the healthiest otherwise.

Numbers:

• Temp: 78F
• Specific Gravity: 1.026
• pH: 8.2
• Ammonia: 0 (API and Seachem Ammonia Alert)
• Nitrite: 0 (API)
• Nitrate: 10ppm (API)
• Phosphate: 0.4ppm (Nyos). [Probably due to Reef Roids]
• dKH: 9.2 (Hanna)
• Ca: 490ppm (Nyos)
• Mg: 1440ppm (Nyos)

Phosphate is high, which won't help the problem if it's an algae, but there's no visible algae on the two closed frags since I dipped in H2O2 and brushed it off as best I could without harming the polyps.

Other stocking:

• Green slimer acro
• Sympodium
• Hammer
• Frogspawn
• Misc mushrooms (Ricordia, Rodactis, , others)
• Misc candy canes/trumpets
• Misc montipora
• Cyphastrea
• Xenia
• Favia
• Acan
• Duncan
• Burning banana
• Pavona
• Psammy
• Stylo
• 3x Astrea snails
• 3x turbo snails
• 3x hermits
• 1 emerald crab

Lots of corals (TSA black Friday is dangerous), and the zoas are the only things that seem unhappy. It's the two that came from a local seller with the issue, so the logical conclusion is a parasite or something on those frags. But what survives coral Rx, Bayer and H2O2? And how do I keep it from spreading?

​

 

[PicassoClown04]

I dipped in H2O2 for 1 minute, but I've read some folks do 3 minutes. Any experience with that long of a dip?

The rest of the tank seems fine. It's my invert QT. It's been wet for almost 2 months, and during that time I went a bit overboard. The zoas are the only things that seem to be unhappy.

I have 3 sources of zoas:

1. Local seller: 2 frags, mixed variety, unknown name. These are the ones pictured that have been closed for over a week.
2. LFS: 1 frag, flavor unknown. Closed sometimes, but seems mostly ok.
3. Top Shelf Aquatics: 4 frags (smurfetts, nirvana, pandora, WWC bloodsuckers). Smurfetts close from time to time, but nothing I would worry about if the other zoas weren't having trouble. Nirvanas have two white spots on the stalk that really do look like spirorbid worms, but I've never heard of those growing on the flesh of something else. And the nirvanas seem the healthiest otherwise.

Numbers:

• Temp: 78F
• Specific Gravity: 1.026
• pH: 8.2
• Ammonia: 0 (API and Seachem Ammonia Alert)
• Nitrite: 0 (API)
• Nitrate: 10ppm (API)
• Phosphate: 0.4ppm (Nyos). [Probably due to Reef Roids]
• dKH: 9.2 (Hanna)
• Ca: 490ppm (Nyos)
• Mg: 1440ppm (Nyos)

Phosphate is high, which won't help the problem if it's an algae, but there's no visible algae on the two closed frags since I dipped in H2O2 and brushed it off as best I could without harming the polyps.

Other stocking:

• Green slimer acro
• Sympodium
• Hammer
• Frogspawn
• Misc mushrooms (Ricordia, Rodactis, , others)
• Misc candy canes/trumpets
• Misc montipora
• Cyphastrea
• Xenia
• Favia
• Acan
• Duncan
• Burning banana
• Pavona
• Psammy
• Stylo
• 3x Astrea snails
• 3x turbo snails
• 3x hermits
• 1 emerald crab

Lots of corals (TSA black Friday is dangerous), and the zoas are the only things that seem unhappy. It's the two that came from a local seller with the issue, so the logical conclusion is a parasite or something on those frags. But what survives coral Rx, Bayer and H2O2? And how do I keep it from spreading?

​

You could try a longer dip. People just dilute the H2O2 with more water then leave the coral longer. I think it’s +1 minute for every +1 part water. So a 1:5 dip would be 5 minutes. There’s an official dip thread that you may want to check out. Dips do not kill eggs, so if it’s a pest you have to continue to dip. Like a nudi could lay eggs then you do a dip, now the nudi is dead but then the eggs hatch. Now you have to dip again before those baby nudis are old enough to lay their own eggs. I don’t think you have nudis cause the polyps would be disappearing, but you get my point. Maybe text that local guy and ask if he’s got any known pests in his tank?