Little baffled on what is going on at the moment...

[William Robinson]

Little history: I am not new to reef aquariums and have enough knowledge to be "dangerous". This is the 4th running system in my home and seems to be the only one I am having issues with.
I am NEW to automated dosing other than just performing water changes and with 4 tanks you can probably understand why I've decided to finally embrace the technology. I started tank number 4 with essentially things I already had. 75% of the water came from "old" water from other tanks, approximately 50% - 60% of the live rock came from other tanks with the remaining coming from cured rock (no coraline growing). The entire rest of the setup was new (heaters, pumps, WM's, ETC) I expected to see calcium being consumed rather quickly along with Alk and magnesium due to the spread of coraline etc. The tank is mixed reef (10~%SPS, 20~%LPS and rounding up the rest with softies). As Ive let the tank go the past month plotting and charting the loss of elements setting up my daily dosing here is what I have found (or not found ) and struggling with.

Test kit : Salifert, Red Sea and cheap ole API. pH with calibrated Hanna and Salifert

Current Automated Dosing;
2mL of Acropower, daily at 5PM
2mL of BRS Soda Ash for Alk) I plan on increasing this by 1mL this afternoon after seeing the decline once I plotted this out)

The 0.5 cups of IORC added on the chart 2/16 was into my ATO water which was exhausted in 2-3 days to get target SG to 1.025.(Still working that up)

Calcium holding steady???

Magnesium-Increasing Mg but I have not dosed this?

Falling pH (plan on dosing Aquavito 8.4 to bring it up a bit but Im not going to chase it. The last plotted test was not performed at my usual 5PM so it may be apart of the natural rise and fall.

Alkalinity - Increasing Soda Ash dose from 2mL daily to 3 mL daily today.

 

[Devisissy]

MAG test is in acceptable range of deviation. They are just hobby kits. Just a heads up though, using old water doesn't do much but move nitrates around. It's the live rock from your other systems that helps the tank to cycle. Your tank seems to be OK. PH and ALK I assume are in correlation to each other. Keep the ALK up, PH should rise too. And of course since you are not new to this know you have to dose the two part equally or your calcium and alkalinity will fall out of balance quite quickly. Good luck!

 

[William Robinson]

MAG test is in acceptable range of deviation. They are just hobby kits. Just a heads up though, using old water doesn't do much but move nitrates around. It's the live rock from your other systems that helps the tank to cycle. Your tank seems to be OK. PH and ALK I assume are in correlation to each other. Keep the ALK up, PH should rise too. And of course since you are not new to this know you have to dose the two part equally or your calcium and alkalinity will fall out of balance quite quickly. Good luck!

Thank you for chiming in. I guess I need to clarify what is baffling me. So I expected to see a decline in my calcium based on the uptake by the inhabitants (corals). Since my calcium level was good I started with soda ash and closely monitored the the calcium first over a 5 day period and then a 10 day period to see what the rate of fall was so then I could hopefully get a good dosing amount in a daily schedule for the calcium. Now the a couple weeks has gone by though and I'm not seeing a calcium drop with still only dosing the soda ash I am not sure what I should do next... Should I start dosing equal of the calcium or what?
As for using partial old water from my other tanks to jump start this one it is just a old technique i've used in the past without issues I could go either way on doing it or not but its never hurt me or my tanks so i've just kept with it.

 

[Devisissy]

The only way to get them to balance is to dose them in balance. If you want the calcium to drop you have to dose the Alk. So 3mL alk 3mL calcium. That's how two part works. This article might help. It's fairly basic stuff, but he explains it quite well. https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/the-right-way-to-use-2-part-additives/

 

[William Robinson]

The only way to get them to balance is to dose them in balance. If you want the calcium to drop you have to dose the Alk. So 3mL alk 3mL calcium. That's how two part works. This article might help. It's fairly basic stuff, but he explains it quite well. https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/the-right-way-to-use-2-part-additives/

So I've read through the article and have an understanding of how the two interact with each other. I guess I was just looking for the result of, adding one would reveal how much of the other I would need to dose to maintain both. Wish I had a automatic water changer for all 4 tanks Anyhow, I'll get home and mix up the calcium and start dosing it equally and test again in a few days.

 

[NYCMikeM3]

Hi -- couple of clarifying questions...

1. How many gallons is the tank?
2. How long has it been running i.e. did you start it up on 1/26 (corresponding to graph)?
3. You mention % of SPS, but how many frags / colonies are we talking? Ca & Alk uptake would obviously scale to the size/mass of the coral.
4. Do you see precipitation on your heaters?

Perhaps a few things that might be happening / for you to consider:
1) your PH actually seems pretty low (i.e. in the 'worth-paying-attention-to range'). I know a lot of people say not to watch/pay attention (but i think that's really only true when you're consistently >7.8 at a minimum. Also if you're testing at 5pm, presumably your PH should be at peak-value (guessing your light schedule). So that means you probably swing even lower over night time. Either way Ca/Alk uptake at a PH that low is likely to be somewhat inhibited.
1b) Rater than dose something for PH, have you considered a CO2 reactor?

2) Salinity: You won't shock your tank with an "immediate" .001 increase (from 1.024 to 1.026). Might be worth it to mixup a hyper-saturated solution and add slowly till you hit 1.026 (that will adjust your other levels & PH somewhat).

3) Mg Levels - usually the tests are +/- 15ppm (so your fluctuations are probably less than they look); and it seems like the 'increase' happened when you added salt to your ATO? (just curious: why not mix a high salinity mix in a shaker bottle and add it to sump/high-flow slowly vs. putting it in your ATO)? Not sure of your tank/ato size (and 1/2c isn't 'a lot'... but probably ideal to keep your ATO only using RODI)

4) Soda Ash vs. 2 part: It seems like (regardless of whether anyone's quite nailed the diagnosis), you're having some frustration keeping your parameters where you want. Perhaps using a standard 2 part Ca & ALK you might have more success? Certainly shouldn't hurt anything, and you'll be able to decouple the soda ash's contribution to PH and see if something else is going on.

5) Ca probably isn't increasing either -- the +/- 15ppm testing error is generally applicable for Ca as well. And you're +/-5ppm as it seems.

6) For sure your ALK is in the fine/acceptable range. But it's definitely on the low-end; if you targeted a 9.5+ DKH with 2-part dosing that might help your

My Guess: Without knowing how much coral you have in your tank (i.e. if there's enough to appreciably consume Ca & ALK) you're probably not seeing Ca uptake because your PH is too low, your ALK isn't high enough, and you might still be cycling your tank (although you've certainly accelerated that with your existing rock/water -- just unclear how much livestock and how long tank has been running).

Wish you the best with this setup and getting everything in order!

 

[Neoalchemist]

I have a similar problem but all I dose is kalk in topoff.
Tank is happy and corals grow well. So I'm not concerned. I just assume my source water is higher in certain elements at differant times of the year. Ro only shows up to .01 so I just enjoy the free magnesium bump or alk push since it's usually gradual.

 

[Devisissy]

Kalk is equal CA to ALK. My PH used to run as low as OP's. Never was an issue. When we had central air put in the PH rose to 8.0. Chaeto was the best PH booster for me.

 

[William Robinson]

Hi -- couple of clarifying questions...

1. How many gallons is the tank?
2. How long has it been running i.e. did you start it up on 1/26 (corresponding to graph)?
3. You mention % of SPS, but how many frags / colonies are we talking? Ca & Alk uptake would obviously scale to the size/mass of the coral.
4. Do you see precipitation on your heaters?

Perhaps a few things that might be happening / for you to consider:
1) your PH actually seems pretty low (i.e. in the 'worth-paying-attention-to range'). I know a lot of people say not to watch/pay attention (but i think that's really only true when you're consistently >7.8 at a minimum. Also if you're testing at 5pm, presumably your PH should be at peak-value (guessing your light schedule). So that means you probably swing even lower over night time. Either way Ca/Alk uptake at a PH that low is likely to be somewhat inhibited.
1b) Rater than dose something for PH, have you considered a CO2 reactor?

2) Salinity: You won't shock your tank with an "immediate" .001 increase (from 1.024 to 1.026). Might be worth it to mixup a hyper-saturated solution and add slowly till you hit 1.026 (that will adjust your other levels & PH somewhat).

3) Mg Levels - usually the tests are +/- 15ppm (so your fluctuations are probably less than they look); and it seems like the 'increase' happened when you added salt to your ATO? (just curious: why not mix a high salinity mix in a shaker bottle and add it to sump/high-flow slowly vs. putting it in your ATO)? Not sure of your tank/ato size (and 1/2c isn't 'a lot'... but probably ideal to keep your ATO only using RODI)

4) Soda Ash vs. 2 part: It seems like (regardless of whether anyone's quite nailed the diagnosis), you're having some frustration keeping your parameters where you want. Perhaps using a standard 2 part Ca & ALK you might have more success? Certainly shouldn't hurt anything, and you'll be able to decouple the soda ash's contribution to PH and see if something else is going on.

5) Ca probably isn't increasing either -- the +/- 15ppm testing error is generally applicable for Ca as well. And you're +/-5ppm as it seems.

6) For sure your ALK is in the fine/acceptable range. But it's definitely on the low-end; if you targeted a 9.5+ DKH with 2-part dosing that might help your

My Guess: Without knowing how much coral you have in your tank (i.e. if there's enough to appreciably consume Ca & ALK) you're probably not seeing Ca uptake because your PH is too low, your ALK isn't high enough, and you might still be cycling your tank (although you've certainly accelerated that with your existing rock/water -- just unclear how much livestock and how long tank has been running).

Wish you the best with this setup and getting everything in order!

Hi Mike,
SEVERAL great questions there and I really appreciate the time you put into asking them. I will do my best to itemize the answers.

-The tank is a 60g cube 24*24*24 with cube refugium sump running chaeto and Reef Octopus 120 space saver skimmer.
-Tank equipment was started in mid December. Now I say tank equipment because literally everything including the sand was taken from my other tanks including majority of the water. The was no cycle indicated by any of my tests.
-Corals - 2 colonies of trumpets one12+ heads the other with 5 heads, 2 x 3"+ fungia, base ball size hammer with 4 heads, 2x 4"+ montipora, 2x lobophilia one with 3 complete formed heads, one with 2 and working on the third, 1 acro frag about 3", Countless zoa, ricordia, red and green mushroom softies and a small patch of GSP that hitchhiked.
-No precip on heater

1- I normally do not chase pH unless critically low for some reason. I have a bottle of 8.4 and considering dosing here soon as I get done typing this and testing the water once again.

1b - Since this is a bedside tank and a cube the space under the cabinet is non-existent. I don't believe I have the space for one at all.

2 - Noted and will do that, my target was 1.025 but if 1.026 will help I can go there

3- I was keeping with the slow and steady route on the added salt. I have a 5g reservoir and keep a Sicce mini power head running in it 24/7.

4 - definitely a consideration and will probably do something like this once I exhaust all the supplies I have on hand. I was attempting the methods I found on BRS's additives page since dosing was new to me. Seemed easier than my previous water change method all the time but now I see otherwise.

5- I wonder what sort of testing BRS is using so that they are tell people to set their doseage based on a 5 day useage... Must be "Pharmagrade"

6- Going to hit the program on the dosers up from 2mL to 4mL on both soda ash and calcium chloride and monitor closely over the next couple days

Plan- Increase doseage to 4mL on soda ash & calcium chloride, dose AquaVitro 8.4 as needed and bring SG to 1.026

 

[William Robinson]

Hi -- couple of clarifying questions...

1. How many gallons is the tank?
2. How long has it been running i.e. did you start it up on 1/26 (corresponding to graph)?
3. You mention % of SPS, but how many frags / colonies are we talking? Ca & Alk uptake would obviously scale to the size/mass of the coral.
4. Do you see precipitation on your heaters?

Perhaps a few things that might be happening / for you to consider:
1) your PH actually seems pretty low (i.e. in the 'worth-paying-attention-to range'). I know a lot of people say not to watch/pay attention (but i think that's really only true when you're consistently >7.8 at a minimum. Also if you're testing at 5pm, presumably your PH should be at peak-value (guessing your light schedule). So that means you probably swing even lower over night time. Either way Ca/Alk uptake at a PH that low is likely to be somewhat inhibited.
1b) Rater than dose something for PH, have you considered a CO2 reactor?

2) Salinity: You won't shock your tank with an "immediate" .001 increase (from 1.024 to 1.026). Might be worth it to mixup a hyper-saturated solution and add slowly till you hit 1.026 (that will adjust your other levels & PH somewhat).

3) Mg Levels - usually the tests are +/- 15ppm (so your fluctuations are probably less than they look); and it seems like the 'increase' happened when you added salt to your ATO? (just curious: why not mix a high salinity mix in a shaker bottle and add it to sump/high-flow slowly vs. putting it in your ATO)? Not sure of your tank/ato size (and 1/2c isn't 'a lot'... but probably ideal to keep your ATO only using RODI)

4) Soda Ash vs. 2 part: It seems like (regardless of whether anyone's quite nailed the diagnosis), you're having some frustration keeping your parameters where you want. Perhaps using a standard 2 part Ca & ALK you might have more success? Certainly shouldn't hurt anything, and you'll be able to decouple the soda ash's contribution to PH and see if something else is going on.

5) Ca probably isn't increasing either -- the +/- 15ppm testing error is generally applicable for Ca as well. And you're +/-5ppm as it seems.

6) For sure your ALK is in the fine/acceptable range. But it's definitely on the low-end; if you targeted a 9.5+ DKH with 2-part dosing that might help your

My Guess: Without knowing how much coral you have in your tank (i.e. if there's enough to appreciably consume Ca & ALK) you're probably not seeing Ca uptake because your PH is too low, your ALK isn't high enough, and you might still be cycling your tank (although you've certainly accelerated that with your existing rock/water -- just unclear how much livestock and how long tank has been running).

Wish you the best with this setup and getting everything in order!

Hey Mike, so I changed the doser program as mentioned to 4ml of soda ash and 4 ml of calcium chloride. I may have accidentally double dosed it when setting it up but even though some of the numbers have jumped high everything appears to be happy still.
I dosed the AquaVitro 8.4 to a pH of 8.0 to not jump too far.
I adjusted the salt from the 1.024 to 1.026

With this adjustment some of the parameters just drastically. Not going to do anything more but test daily for a few days to see what happens
Today tests
5PM as usual
Temp 77.3
pH 8.1
SG 1.026
Alk 12.3
Calcium - 450
Mag - 1455