Low nitates, please someone explain to me nitrates and carbon

[Miller535]

Ok. So I have a 125 gallon aquarium. I am currently having dino's. I believe this reason to be because my nitrates are zero. My phosphates are ok, they sit around .02. I bought brightwells Neonitro to dose, it says to do so WITH microbacter7. I'm on board so far. It says to re-test in 24 hours. And if nitrate and phosphate levels remain unchanged the the system is likely carbon- limited and to retest. This is the part that loses me. I thought carbon consumes nitrates which is why people carbon dose when their nitrates are too high.

 

[Miller535]

And on a side note. I have been running GFO to keep my phosphates down to .02. Should I stop running that while I dose the Neonitro and Microbacter7?

 

[coralkurd]

following cause I am in the same boat now and just ordered neonitrate and becter7. I also run gfo and carbon. no refugium. that carbon thing doesn't make sense to me also.

 

[BigRich]

I personally wouldn't dose Microbacter(Brightwell says you can but I wouldn't in this situation) while dosing Neonitro. I've used neonitro to raise my nitrates successfully. The MicrōBacter7 could easily "take out" the nitrates as fast you put them in. I would make sure I shutoff any skimmer and dose Nitro for a few days. Test each day and watch the tank. Once you get nitrates in the tank then I would come back to the Microbacter and start adding it slowly. I wouldn't run carbon but I think the GFO would be okay. I don't know what your phosphate are at without it. BTW how new is the tank? What is your lighting schedule like? You could also go with no lights for a day or two to kill off a lot of algae, assuming this isn't a reef tank.

 

[Miller535]

I personally wouldn't dose Microbacter(Brightwell says you can but I wouldn't in this situation) while dosing Neonitro. I've used neonitro to raise my nitrates successfully. The MicrōBacter7 could easily "take out" the nitrates as fast you put them in. I would make sure I shutoff any skimmer and dose Nitro for a few days. Test each day and watch the tank. Once you get nitrates in the tank then I would come back to the Microbacter and start adding it slowly. I wouldn't run carbon but I think the GFO would be okay. I don't know what your phosphate are at without it. BTW how new is the tank? What is your lighting schedule like? You could also go with no lights for a day or two to kill off a lot of algae, assuming this isn't a reef tank.

My tank is almost 7 y/o. Lights run for 7 hours. A black out is something I was considering

 

[Miller535]

Bump

 

[Miller535]

Maybe one of our Reef2Reef chemist can explain this to me, and tell me if adding a carbon source in this circumstance is advisable? And if so if I could simply vodka dose to try it

 

[homer1475]

A carbon source, and GAC(granular activated carbon) are 2 different things.

GAC we run in a reactor, or passively in a high flow area in a media bag simply removes tannin's and toxins from the water.

Carbon source(Nopox, vinegar, vodka, sugar, etc) we add to feed bacteria that also consume nitrates.

Carbon limited means you do not have enough of a carbon source to feed the bacteria. So when you add neonitrate, everything in the system uptakes it immediately and will still test 0. Until you come out of the carbon limited state, any carbon source you add will be immediately used up, until you have enough to keep some in the water colum(IE not ) on a nitrate test kit.

 

[Miller535]

A carbon source, and GAC(granular activated carbon) are 2 different things.

GAC we run in a reactor, or passively in a high flow area in a media bag simply removes tannin's and toxins from the water.

Carbon source(Nopox, vinegar, vodka, sugar, etc) we add to feed bacteria that also consume nitrates.

Carbon limited means you do not have enough of a carbon source to feed the bacteria. So when you add neonitrate, everything in the system uptakes it immediately and will still test 0. Until you come out of the carbon limited state, any carbon source you add will be immediately used up, until you have enough to keep some in the water colum(IE not ) on a nitrate test kit.

O.k. So last night I added neonitro and microbacter7. So tonight I'll re-test and likely still have zero. So if it is still zero could I start vodka dosing as the carbon source? And should I hold off on adding microbacter for a while like bigrich said?

 

[homer1475]

You wouldn't start carbon dosing with nutrient levels at 0.

The whole idea behind carbon dosing is to feed bacteria that lower nitrates. You already have 0.

So no in your case carbon dosing shouldn't even be on the table yet.

 

[Miller535]

You wouldn't start carbon dosing with nutrient levels at 0.

The whole idea behind carbon dosing is to feed bacteria that lower nitrates. You already have 0.

So no in your case carbon dosing shouldn't even be on the table yet.

O.k. That makes more sense to me. So I should only dose nitrates (and nothing else) until they are detectable. Brightwell recommends a Nitrate level of 3, which sounds good to me. I dosed way below that last night because I would rather slowly dose to make sure that I don't dose too much on accident. And I don't think a sudden nutrient swing would be good.

 

[taricha]

There's a lot going on in this discussion, but I'll just say that GFO correlates with dinos more strongly than probably any other tank intervention. Pull the GFO.

 

[Miller535]

There's a lot going on in this discussion, but I'll just say that GFO correlates with dinos more strongly than probably any other tank intervention. Pull the GFO.

I was thinking about trying that.

 

[NS Mike D]

There's a lot going on in this discussion, but I'll just say that GFO correlates with dinos more strongly than probably any other tank intervention. Pull the GFO.

I would pull the GFO. Once the N03 gets to zero, that limits the update of PO4 as corals aren't synthesizing NO3 with PO4 with photosynthesis. A common knee jerk reaction is to use GFO to reduce the PO4, however dosing Nitrogen should lower PO4 as photosynthetic activity increases.

0.02 ppm PO4 is very low and, as explained, I would anticipate that going lower. We know dinos are usually associated with too low nutrient and that raising NO3 and PO4 has demonstrated success in fighting them.

Needless to say there is little wiggle room with these ultra low numbers warranting close monitoring.

 

[Miller535]

I would pull the GFO. Once the N03 gets to zero, that limits the update of PO4 as corals aren't synthesizing NO3 with PO4 with photosynthesis. A common knee jerk reaction is to use GFO to reduce the PO4, however dosing Nitrogen should lower PO4 as photosynthetic activity increases.

0.02 ppm PO4 is very low and, as explained, I would anticipate that going lower. We know dinos are usually associated with too low nutrient and that raising NO3 and PO4 has demonstrated success in fighting them.

Needless to say there is little wiggle room with these ultra low numbers warranting close monitoring.

I will stop using the GFO. Now I should add that while my tank is almost 7 years old, it has been a fowler tank all this time. So there will not be any uptake of nutrients from corals. I bought Kessil A360X's (4 of them) a few months ago, that are turned way down. I do want to transition from FOWLER to Reef, but want to get the dinos under control first. As I am worried the dinos will smother any corals I try to add.

 

[NS Mike D]

I will stop using the GFO. Now I should add that while my tank is almost 7 years old, it has been a fowler tank all this time. So there will not be any uptake of nutrients from corals. I bought Kessil A360X's (4 of them) a few months ago, that are turned way down. I do want to transition from FOWLER to Reef, but want to get the dinos under control first. As I a worried the dinos will smother any corals I try to add.

good plan. Your current filtration, IMO is doing too good a job - while algae issues are often experienced with high nutrients and corals prefer lower nutrients, too low nutrients bring their own issues and you are experiencing

Match your filtration to your target numbers and get good test kits for NO3 and PO4 (Red Sea, Seifert etc. not API). Fwiw, Red Sea suggests for mixed reed tanks ranges of 1-2 ppm for NO3 and 0.08 - 0.12 ppm for PO4. These levels are debatable, but, IMO, a good starting point. For me, if my numbers are higher than these I will increase my fitration/nutrient uptake/export. On the other hand, if I fall below these, I need to dial it down (or feed more or dose)

 

[Miller535]

good plan. Your current filtration, IMO is doing too good a job - while algae issues are often experienced with high nutrients and corals prefer lower nutrients, too low nutrients bring their own issues and you are experiencing

Match your filtration to your target numbers and get good test kits for NO3 and PO4 (Red Sea, Seifert etc. not API). Fwiw, Red Sea suggests for mixed reed tanks ranges of 1-2 ppm for NO3 and 0.08 - 0.12 ppm for PO4. These levels are debatable, but, IMO, a good starting point. For me, if my numbers are higher than these I will increase my fitration/nutrient uptake/export. On the other hand, if I fall below these, I need to dial it down (or feed more or dose)

I have the red sea nutrient kit for testing Nitrate and phosphate. But I just recently switched to the hannah checker for phosphates. As red sea could not detect my phosphates. The hannah checker seems pretty accurate for phosphates. As in Jan I sent away a Triton test, and on the same day I collected my sample for triton I also did a check with hannah checker. I measured I believe 0.02 and Triton measured .018. I like checking my parameters when I send a Triton test away, to both check my test kit itself, and my own testing to make sure I am not messing up. Current parameters tank is sitting at:

8.5 DKH
420 Calcium
1300 magnesium
0 NO3
.02 PO4

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

O.k. That makes more sense to me. So I should only dose nitrates (and nothing else) until they are detectable. Brightwell recommends a Nitrate level of 3, which sounds good to me. I dosed way below that last night because I would rather slowly dose to make sure that I don't dose too much on accident. And I don't think a sudden nutrient swing would be good.

Yes, dose just nitrate. 3 ppm at once is a fine dose, and it may disappear in a couple of days. . No need for bacteria additives.

 

[Miller535]

Yes, dose just nitrate. 3 ppm at once is a fine dose, and it may disappear in a couple of days. . No need for bacteria additives.

I dosed 1ppm Wednesday night, and 1 ppm last night. And tested today and it still tested 0 nitrate. Is it possible my tank is using that much nitrates in a day?

 

[Miller535]

I will increase the dose tonight I guess and re-test tomorrow and report back