Macro Algae and Copper.

thejuggernaut · Apr 28, 2015

Do macro algae like Cheato, consume copper in any sizable quantities? Specifically Seachem Cupramine. I am thinking about putting some in the sump of my QT, and want to make sure that it wont soak up the copper during treatment.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 28, 2015

Cupramine is an unnatural form of copper in seawater. I've not seen any evidence that creatures take it up (or not).

Macroalgae do in general take up some copper.

I think you may just have to monitor it.

miyags · Apr 28, 2015

Wouldn't the therapeutic level of copper kill the macro algae?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 28, 2015

I don't know. It might. Normal copper would at least slow growth during the exposure period.

This paper shows that 0.5 ppm copper stops the growth of one type of macroalgae, while 0.1 ppm only slows it:

http://www.oceandocs.org/bitstream/handle/1834/787/mamboya_p185-192.pdf?sequence=1

thejuggernaut · Apr 28, 2015

Lol. Nothing is ever easy. So what level is everyone running Cupramine at. I saw that minimal level .02 mg/L and that it becomes toxic at .08 mg/L. Surely, you want it somewhere in the middle. Although I would say on the lower end of the spectrum, just for safety.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 28, 2015

thejuggernaut said:
Lol. Nothing is ever easy. So what level is everyone running Cupramine at. I saw that minimal level .02 mg/L and that it becomes toxic at .08 mg/L. Surely, you want it somewhere in the middle. Although I would say on the lower end of the spectrum, just for safety.

FWIW, that is 0.2 ppm (mg/L) and 0.8 ppm.

thejuggernaut · Apr 28, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
FWIW, that is 0.2 ppm (mg/L) and 0.8 ppm.

LOL. It's worth allot, considering if I did it the other way, I would just be wasting my time!

beaslbob · Apr 28, 2015

thejuggernaut said:
Do macro algae like Cheato, consume copper in any sizable quantities? Specifically Seachem Cupramine. I am thinking about putting some in the sump of my QT, and want to make sure that it wont soak up the copper during treatment.

Yes and very much so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in fact macro algae (usually dead and dried) is and can be used to clean up industrial wastes sites by absorbing lotsa nasties.
Dr. Walter Addey responded to an email of mine over 10 years ago that he had designed a system using live macro algaes to remove copper from cooling water on a nuclear power generating station.
After many years of speculations that other site years ago someone linked a WHO report on copper and corals. In one paragraph they reported actual scientific under controlled conditions of copper bioaccumulation of (live) macro algae. Several different algaes were exposed to varying level of copper (up to 250ppm) for different lengths of time for up to two weeks. The results were:
---- that none of the macros had reached to max and were still accumulating more copper.
---- The accumulation by the macros was linear too both the concentration of the copper and the length of exposure.
---- One macro exposed to 250ppm copper for two weeks increased copper in the macro from 30ppm to 1055ppm.
So IMHO macro algaes and even turf algaes do accumulate copper and in very significant quantities.
If need be I can see if that study is on my home computer which could be a problem as my nas personal cloud looks like it's failing.

4FordFamily · Apr 28, 2015

My chaeto is disappearing during copper (cupramine) treatment. :shrug:

thejuggernaut · Apr 28, 2015

beaslbob said:
Yes and very much so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in fact macro algae (usually dead and dried) is and can be used to clean up industrial wastes sites by absorbing lotsa nasties.
Dr. Walter Addey responded to an email of mine over 10 years ago that he had designed a system using live macro algaes to remove copper from cooling water on a nuclear power generating station.
After many years of speculations that other site years ago someone linked a WHO report on copper and corals. In one paragraph they reported actual scientific under controlled conditions of copper bioaccumulation of (live) macro algae. Several different algaes were exposed to varying level of copper (up to 250ppm) for different lengths of time for up to two weeks. Tthe results were that none of the macros had reached to max and were still accumulating more copper. The accumulation by the macros was linear too both the concentration of the copper and the length of exposure. One macro exposed to 250ppm copper increased copper in the macro from 30ppm to 1055ppm.
So IMHO macro algaes and even turf algaes do accumulate copper and in very significant quantities.
If need be I can see if that study is on my home computer which could be a problem as my nas personal cloud looks like it's failing.

Thanks,
That's what I need to know.

beaslbob · Apr 28, 2015

3fordfamily said:
My chaeto is disappearing during copper (cupramine) treatment. :shrug:

sorry to hear.
I have also heard that in some cases the chaeto will absorb the copper so well one has to increase the dosing 3 to 4 times the recommendations.
But that just rumors from another site and years ago. my .02

4FordFamily · Apr 28, 2015

beaslbob said:
sorry to hear.
I have also heard that in some cases the chaeto will absorb the copper so well one has to increase the dosing 3 to 4 times the recommendations.
But that just rumors from another site and years ago. my .02

I've had to dose 3-4 times as much but it's because I turned my fowlr in to a large hospital tank. I removed inverts until I can remove the cupramine. As such rock and sand absorb it.

thejuggernaut · Apr 28, 2015

It's hard finding a long term filtration system for a permanently running QT tank. Copper screws with almost everything. I guess that is why it's the best treatment for Ich. I wonder if the copper absorbs into the Marinepure blocks.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 28, 2015

thejuggernaut said:
It's hard finding a long term filtration system for a permanently running QT tank. Copper screws with almost everything. I guess that is why it's the best treatment for Ich. I wonder if the copper absorbs into the Marinepure blocks.

It likely will, yes. A sponge may be the best bet.

4FordFamily · Apr 28, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
It likely will, yes. A sponge may be the best bet.

I concur, I have many sponges in my qt

thejuggernaut · Apr 28, 2015

3fordfamily said:
I concur, I have many sponges in my qt

How do you deal with Nitrates and Phosphates. I've always hated QT because you can't seem to get them under control. I wouldn't even mind running the QT fallow for awhile to let the rocks absorb copper. Question is, would they release it just as fast, or would they hold on to it. I may just have to try it out and run some test. Thanks for all the responses guys. I'm just trying to think of the best way to move forward.

4FordFamily · Apr 28, 2015

With aggressive amounts of cuprasorb, carbon and reloading both in day 6, by day ten it usually reads absolute zero copper. This was cupramine.

Water changes, sponges from an established tank, seachem stability and other beneficial bacteria dosing products. NO ammonia nitrite and nitrate detoxifiers they will poison the fish. Sea Chem I dose daily for two weeks.