Man made rock vs the rest.....
- Thread starter Vancjj88
- Start date
- Tagged users None
EmptyWallet
Active Member
Yeah I was just challenging the statement that live rock is mandatory.
Every reefer has a choice - Dead Rock + controlled introduction of bacteria, copepods/other, coralline algae OR live rock with both the good and the risk of the bad stuff. I have no opinion on which way is 'better'.
In my case, I hate Aiptasia so much that dead rock was my only option (about 200kg of rock in a 300 gal) :)
One could argue live rock carefully quarantined and inspected ( + fallow to avoid Ich cysts etc) is the best of both worlds...
Clinically clean vs naturally wonderful, if you will....
Every reefer has a choice - Dead Rock + controlled introduction of bacteria, copepods/other, coralline algae OR live rock with both the good and the risk of the bad stuff. I have no opinion on which way is 'better'.
In my case, I hate Aiptasia so much that dead rock was my only option (about 200kg of rock in a 300 gal) :)
One could argue live rock carefully quarantined and inspected ( + fallow to avoid Ich cysts etc) is the best of both worlds...
Clinically clean vs naturally wonderful, if you will....
DesertReefT4r
Valuable Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2018
- Messages
- 2,457
- Reaction score
- 2,178
There is so much more to real live rock than bacteria and pods. I dont want to get into all the bio diversity so I wont, those that have been reefing for a while know what live rock has to offer. For the new reefers that have only been offered dry rock you need to see an older system setup with live rock. Dry rock does work the down side of it is that you will most likely have algae outbreaks and or bryopsis. It will take time for the rock to gain the bio diversity the keep most corals including sps. Nothing in a bottle can add this to level of life a tank or the rock. 1-2 years is commonly reported as the time needed for dry rock to become "live". Bacteria will colonize the rock quickly but only time and what hitch hikes on corals and frag plugs will slowly add the bio diversity needed to make live rock. Or you can kick start things by seeding the dry rock by adding in 10-20% live rock. I plan to do at least 50/50 live and dry rock unless I can find some low priced clean live rock. On a side note it seems that even dry live rock like what BRS sells is no longer being shipped to the US. Looks like we need more Gulf rock sources to fill the demand. I would even be happy with mined rock seeded for a year or 2 in the Gulf. My last tank was setup with half live rock that was dried out for many months and half mature live rock from my 40B. The dry rock cycled for 3 months in a Brute trash can in total darkness with a powerhead, skimmer, carbon and gfo, weekly water changes with old tank water to help seed the rock and it was free water. Did this until no3 and po4 became undetectable on my test kits. I still had algea issues with some of that rock but after about a year it looked just like the rest of my mature live rock covered in coraline, tube worms and sponges.
rcpalmer1
Well-Known Member
I have had several tanks between 50 and 200 gallons. I have tried all different kinds of rock. I personally like Maro Rock. I have not bought from them in years but the last time I did their price was unbeatable. I seen them at Reef A Palooza and their rock looks like it did 10 years ago. It is old reef from the Florida Keys that is no longer under water. So It doesn't destroy natural habitat and is clean so you don't get anything unwanted in your tank. Carib Sea has a man made rock that looks nice and is suppose to have bacteria in it. Not sure how as it comes dry. They do have some cool arches and tunnels. I have bought Live Rock from several LFS and I feel none of it was worth it. One of my current tanks was Real Reef Rock in it. It is man made and has been "cured". It seams dense to me. It is dyed purple. The color has disappeared on the rock under my lights.
All future tanks will a purchase rock for will be http://www.marcorocks.com/ with live sad from https://caribsea.com/aquarium/#marine-rocks-and-more and maybe some arches from carb sea.
All future tanks will a purchase rock for will be http://www.marcorocks.com/ with live sad from https://caribsea.com/aquarium/#marine-rocks-and-more and maybe some arches from carb sea.
I think a lot of the comments here make sense. There usually isn't a substitution for the real thing, ie , live rock. I personally don't like the look of the man made rock although if you were interested in the sustainability aspect I could see that as a driver for purchasing the man made stuff. Some of my favorite rock is dry marco rock. I'm using it in my new tank and after the cycle will bring over my live rock from my other tank.
Awesome realy enjoying all the info comin out. I also think that all the live rock points to diversity which is awesome and i understand very well. But my big thing here is so far i think everything all and all points to live rock speeding everything up wich is good and you also have less control over it which is also good realy or can be good:D. But the other thing im seeing is patience is key on man made rock. If you are patient and wait for a full cycle which could take years man made/dry rock should have plenty of diversity. I also know that alot of our algea problems are eather our own fault or the tank not being completely cycled and im not just talking about the nitrogen cycle. There has been two post of the benefits of like rock and diversity has been the biggest thing talked about. Both have pointed out there are other benafits to live rock but havent talked about the many just the one. So im curious what are the other benefits? This is what im realy looking for here.:)
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
My Aquarium Showcase
About a third of my rock is DIY rock just because I like it better. I collected all my rock in the sea but over the years I replaced much of it with the stuff I build because I can custom make it any way I like.
I build it hollow so it has much more room for bacteria than real rock. But to start a tank, you can't beat live rock.
This smaller piece is hollow but I also make very large ones and will make one today.
I build it hollow so it has much more room for bacteria than real rock. But to start a tank, you can't beat live rock.
This smaller piece is hollow but I also make very large ones and will make one today.
That is awesome:). How do u make yours?that is realy a cool piece.About a third of my rock is DIY rock just because I like it better. I collected all my rock in the sea but over the years I replaced much of it with the stuff I build because I can custom make it any way I like.
I build it hollow so it has much more room for bacteria than real rock. But to start a tank, you can't beat live rock.
This smaller piece is hollow but I also make very large ones and will make one today.
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
My Aquarium Showcase
I make a skeleton out of PVC pipe that I heat up (outside) and bend. Then I either wrap wet paper around it or string so the mortar stick and keep adding layers of mortar every day for a few days until I get the thickness I want.
This one is about 6 small pieces of rock cemented together and is the backbone of my reef.
That first long piece is over the moorish Idol here. It is 3' long
This one is about 6 small pieces of rock cemented together and is the backbone of my reef.
That first long piece is over the moorish Idol here. It is 3' long
U
User1
Guest
@Paul B like the Moorish Idol.
@Vancjj88 you can make your own has suggested here. Search engine will yield a lot of how-to's that may bring out your inner artistry ;) Anything is possible - just remember we built one of the biggest rockets still to this date to break low earth orbit and land on the moon and return. Not much computer resources back then and sure less powerful than our cell phones today. We did it with pencil, paper, and drafting skills... My how times have changed.
@Vancjj88 you can make your own has suggested here. Search engine will yield a lot of how-to's that may bring out your inner artistry ;) Anything is possible - just remember we built one of the biggest rockets still to this date to break low earth orbit and land on the moon and return. Not much computer resources back then and sure less powerful than our cell phones today. We did it with pencil, paper, and drafting skills... My how times have changed.
Incredible tank absolutely awesome. How long has your tank up and running.Paul's rock is really cool. I like that.
I used 100% vida rock in this system. No calcium based rock or sand. Never had any real issues. No dino for sure.
Awesome tank boss i realy realy like itI make a skeleton out of PVC pipe that I heat up (outside) and bend. Then I either wrap wet paper around it or string so the mortar stick and keep adding layers of mortar every day for a few days until I get the thickness I want.
This one is about 6 small pieces of rock cemented together and is the backbone of my reef.
That first long piece is over the moorish Idol here. It is 3' long
Marcorock is cool and very neat how they pull from a dead reef that is no longer submerged. I also like how and were they bring it to life. In the keys instead of the gulf with no aptasia.
Tony Thompson
Well-Known Member
There will always be a debate between live and man made rock, but in my opinion its time to STOP. Please Do not use live rock.
By its very nature and its importance to the life that depend on it. It can never be a sustainable choice. The Reefs are under great pressure as it is from many other things, much more destructive an unsustainable than the Marine Aquarium Hobby. But that does not excuse our own responsibility. We should all work towards being part of the solution rather than the problem.
I understand the importance that Live rock may play, especially in the minds of more experienced reefers. The whole methodology of keeping reef animals was built around the Berlin Method and Live Rock. What we need to accept is that this was developed back in the 70`s`, even before I became an aquarist, and I`m no spring Chicken. The scientific understanding behind reef keeping has moved on enormously since then. Equipment, Foods and Dosing Products have all progressed at pace along side this newly gained knowledge. Testing and understanding the elements has improved with more accurate and broader testing methods.
IMO there is absolutely no reason to use live rock in the enclosed systems of our home aquariums. Using man made rock with a modern effective Bio Media is all that is required.
Seeding your rock with bacteria product identified as being instrumental in developing an effective Nitrogen Cycle, is sufficient to create a suitable environment for your animals. The increased surface area of modern bio media easily outweigh that of even the finest live rock.
With regards Biodiversity, (which is often quoted) I would surmise that this is in reference to Microbial Diversity. As a sustainable reefer, this is a crucial part to my own personal method. They are a number of excellent, proven products with sound scientific backing available to hobbyists. I will not list my particular choice but with a small amount of research many suitable products can be found. These products generally include a range of identified bacteria and bacterial accelerants or foods., along side amino acids, vitamins and minerals.
Diversity of other biology can include Zooplankton and Phytoplankton, again all readily available as a live source. Other animals will invariably be introduced once you start to add corals to your tank. I personally buy only cultured animals. I remove the coral from its base , dip re attach to a new temp base and place in quarantine for 45 days. Then I dip again inspect, clean and remount before placing into my DT. Even through this process I still introduce animals such as polychaetes sponges and coralline algaes to my tank. Nature will always find a way, but the importance is to limit the possibilities of introducing negative elements to our prized reef tanks. Simply placing a big chunk of the natural ocean into our reef tank without any effective inspection or dipping is IMO just asking for trouble.
I could go into the many pros of using a man made rock methodology and debate the differences, but to be honest. for me personally, the sustainable aspectis the key to my choice. More importantly it has been proven over a number of years now to be a very effective method of running a successful reef tank.
In conclusion, my advice to anyone setting up a new reef tank is, use man made rock. By all means take the advice of seasoned reefers but always be skeptical, ask for the science behind the statement and try to understand that science before you commit. Some of the great icons in our hobby all appear to follow this rule. They all question debate and explain there methodology. That is the sign of a source of valuable information.
Following an apparent successful method for a long period of time, does not necessarily mean that it is the most effective method available. Things change with time, Knowledge helps us move forward.
Keep sustainable and happy Reefing from across the pond.
By its very nature and its importance to the life that depend on it. It can never be a sustainable choice. The Reefs are under great pressure as it is from many other things, much more destructive an unsustainable than the Marine Aquarium Hobby. But that does not excuse our own responsibility. We should all work towards being part of the solution rather than the problem.
I understand the importance that Live rock may play, especially in the minds of more experienced reefers. The whole methodology of keeping reef animals was built around the Berlin Method and Live Rock. What we need to accept is that this was developed back in the 70`s`, even before I became an aquarist, and I`m no spring Chicken. The scientific understanding behind reef keeping has moved on enormously since then. Equipment, Foods and Dosing Products have all progressed at pace along side this newly gained knowledge. Testing and understanding the elements has improved with more accurate and broader testing methods.
IMO there is absolutely no reason to use live rock in the enclosed systems of our home aquariums. Using man made rock with a modern effective Bio Media is all that is required.
Seeding your rock with bacteria product identified as being instrumental in developing an effective Nitrogen Cycle, is sufficient to create a suitable environment for your animals. The increased surface area of modern bio media easily outweigh that of even the finest live rock.
With regards Biodiversity, (which is often quoted) I would surmise that this is in reference to Microbial Diversity. As a sustainable reefer, this is a crucial part to my own personal method. They are a number of excellent, proven products with sound scientific backing available to hobbyists. I will not list my particular choice but with a small amount of research many suitable products can be found. These products generally include a range of identified bacteria and bacterial accelerants or foods., along side amino acids, vitamins and minerals.
Diversity of other biology can include Zooplankton and Phytoplankton, again all readily available as a live source. Other animals will invariably be introduced once you start to add corals to your tank. I personally buy only cultured animals. I remove the coral from its base , dip re attach to a new temp base and place in quarantine for 45 days. Then I dip again inspect, clean and remount before placing into my DT. Even through this process I still introduce animals such as polychaetes sponges and coralline algaes to my tank. Nature will always find a way, but the importance is to limit the possibilities of introducing negative elements to our prized reef tanks. Simply placing a big chunk of the natural ocean into our reef tank without any effective inspection or dipping is IMO just asking for trouble.
I could go into the many pros of using a man made rock methodology and debate the differences, but to be honest. for me personally, the sustainable aspectis the key to my choice. More importantly it has been proven over a number of years now to be a very effective method of running a successful reef tank.
In conclusion, my advice to anyone setting up a new reef tank is, use man made rock. By all means take the advice of seasoned reefers but always be skeptical, ask for the science behind the statement and try to understand that science before you commit. Some of the great icons in our hobby all appear to follow this rule. They all question debate and explain there methodology. That is the sign of a source of valuable information.
Following an apparent successful method for a long period of time, does not necessarily mean that it is the most effective method available. Things change with time, Knowledge helps us move forward.
Keep sustainable and happy Reefing from across the pond.
To make a blanket statement to not us LR is not a rational one. I just purchased some LR fromKP Aquatics. They lease a site from the state of FL and place dry rock that is mined from dead corals. They then let that rock sit for a couple of years and then harvest it. They are not damaging any coral reefs in the process. There are other companies that are doing the same. I agree, we should not be destroying live reefs to get rock.
SFKINNC
Community Member
There are two main reasons for using live rock: Biodiversity and denitrification.
Denitrification requires surface area that can be colonized by denitrifying bacteria. Live rock and natural rock that is dry have zillions of pores, nooks, and crannies that the bacteria can live on. Rocks that are not porous can not provide the surfaces for the bacteria to colonize. DIY rocks must also be porous or they will not provide the surface area necessary for denitrification.
DIY rocks and dry natural rocks cannot provide biodiversity, but they can be porous. See GARF.ORG
Denitrification requires surface area that can be colonized by denitrifying bacteria. Live rock and natural rock that is dry have zillions of pores, nooks, and crannies that the bacteria can live on. Rocks that are not porous can not provide the surfaces for the bacteria to colonize. DIY rocks must also be porous or they will not provide the surface area necessary for denitrification.
DIY rocks and dry natural rocks cannot provide biodiversity, but they can be porous. See GARF.ORG
Similar threads
-
- Poll
