MH efficiency loss vs T5

[VJV]

If you look into PAR alone to decide your best fixture, you are going to make a big mistake.
Change the bulbs and you will change PAR as well! Big time.
PAR is only part of the equation.
What your PAR meter shows isn't necessarily the best for your corals!
PAR is also a great way to make videos and SELL fixtures!

Grandis.

In this case however, the ATI costs only a fraction of the Spectra so not sure BRS is really gaining much by showing that the lowest cost option actually has a lot more PAR...

At the end of the day it's results that count and again here both T5s and MH have an enviable track record of awesome reefs so I guess T5s are the cost effective way for coral health [emoji4].

 

[VJV]

I will test mine later, but about 6" under the water, I have about 1300PAR and 700 at 15 inches and 300-350 27 inches deep. This is on LumenBrite SE (normal size) with 20K Radium and M80. FWIW - I have a Hammy 10K right next to it also on M80 and it has about 2100 PAR 6 inches right under the bulb... but it falls off pretty quickly as well. I have an Apogee 510.

[emoji33][emoji33][emoji33]... are you growing coral or barbecuing them [emoji23][emoji23].??

 

[jda]

I just took this. This is in a new tank that I set up about 2 weeks ago. It will start to get acropora-only in a few weeks or a month.

The meter is hard to read, but it says 1410 about 6 inches under a 20K Radium on M80. This is in the octogonal reflector. I know that people love them some BRSTv, but they are just one data point. They can be VERY handy if taken for just that... but can also be very dangerous if you only use them as a source.

My apologies for the bad photo... it is hard to take a photo, hold a meter and then hold the probe and my third arm does not work too well yet.

 

[A. grandis]

In this case however, the ATI costs only a fraction of the Spectra so not sure BRS is really gaining much by showing that the lowest cost option actually has a lot more PAR...

At the end of the day it's results that count and again here both T5s and MH have an enviable track record of awesome reefs so I guess T5s are the cost effective way for coral health [emoji4].

Yes, you can choose any to them and will have amazing results. That's for sure!!
I just wanted to point out that PAR can be very relative and a comparison like that shouldn't be the final word IMO.
You're absolutely right about your BRS statement. I didn't mean directly to them. My fault!
I was thinking of those companies that shows PAR as the main reason to sell their fixtures, specially the LED fixtures with sky high PAR readings. People think because they have such high readings they should be better and so on...
And jda is right when he says that halides have properties that T5s don't. Specially for Acros... Halides are just a huge step keeping SPS. Another level.
Grandis.

 

[VJV]

I just took this. This is in a new tank that I set up about 2 weeks ago. It will start to get acropora-only in a few weeks or a month.

The meter is hard to read, but it says 1410 about 6 inches under a 20K Radium on M80. This is in the octogonal reflector. I know that people love them some BRSTv, but they are just one data point. They can be VERY handy if taken for just that... but can also be very dangerous if you only use them as a source.

My apologies for the bad photo... it is hard to take a photo, hold a meter and then hold the probe and my third arm does not work too well yet.

Based on these measurements it seems a 3x150w MH bulb plus 4 80w T5 should be enough for my shallow (24") tank would you agree?

Of course, the reflectors play a big part so difficult to draw any parallels perhaps.

 

[mcarroll]

I guess these BRS videos confirm that a T5 unit is much more efficient translating watts to PAR than a MH

Can you summarize what parts make you say this? I can't sit down to watch those vids and it's hard to say what explains their results.

Lumens per watt is an age-old question, not one that was answered in a vid last week. Thankfully, quality bulb makers like Ushio publish results based on lumens. Halides and T5 are about the same in terms of efficiency if we take the reflectors out of the equation.

My guess is that the Spectra T5 reflectors are as good as you can get, but the 25o-watt halide is under a tiny mini-reflector, so the output levels make sense.

Also bulb choices matter.

As noted earlier based on the Ushio data, if you choose a higher-kelvin halide bulb, it's automatically at a disadvantage output-wise. You can see it on paper....20,000K has an output that's almost 1/3 that of the 10,000K at equivalent wattage.

If you're going to use a traditional halide+T5 setup, you're probably going to be best-served by something close to what served people well back when that was "the thing" – a high quality halide for rendering (that Ushio has a CRI of 90) – and a set of T5's for actinic effect. It was usually one 250w (DE) per two feet of tank and two T5 runs along the front and two alT5 runs along the back.

Sfiligoi pioneered using more, smaller halide tubes like I was (and you were) proposing....rather than concentrating all the light under just a few hot spots, it could easily be spread out across more bulbs. Electronic ballasts make this a much better proposition than it was back in the day too. (But SFiligoi has gotten out of the markey entirely from what I can tell.)

Your challenge is getting the right reflectors for the bulbs and for the installation.

 

[mcarroll]

Your limitation on the halide side is the reflectors, as always. Bulb choice is still pretty amazing...and for certain setups, there are good reflectors too.

Here's the best 150w DE setup I could find on short notice:

Learn More!
Click Here! 150w HQI Metal Halide Horizontal Pendant

12"x7" so it's pretty small.

Even if you did all 150w halides.....six of these fixtures would only set you back $1800.

 

[VJV]

Unfortunately can’t get on of those this side of the pond. It would have to be the Giesemann Infinity with 3 x 150w plus 4x 80w, 72” fixture.

Likely best to look for the 72” Spectra and go with 3x250 plus 4x80w...

May still go with the 60” Giesemann Aurora... I know the MH T5 would be better but this would have some advantages in terms of heat and power savings... at the likely cost of slower Acro growth. Compromises...

If I do go ahead I’ll be sure to post some PAR measurements.

 

[jda]

On a 24" tank, I would still get SE stuff and control output with ballasts. 20K Hamilton on Electronic will be lower output (and wattage) and Radium on M80 could be in the middle and then 10K on M80 (overdriven) could be ultimate. The T5s could be chosen to help balance any of these... for example, with 20K on Electronic, you could use 6500K bulbs for coloration and growth to offset the halides. For 10K, then Pure Actinic all the way.

You can control heat and electricty with lower photo periods if a fan will not do. If you put a fan over the top of the tank when the lights come on (do not wait for the temp to rise), then heat has always been manageable for me... even in 100+ degree midwest summers.

If you do get SE, then take the glass off of there... all that it does is cut output.

Here is an output example 20K XM (there is no 20K Hamilton on the site) on Electronic vs 20K Radium on M80 - 53 vs 85 PPFD. FWIW - Hammy 10K on M80 is 149.

 

[VJV]

On a 24" tank, I would still get SE stuff and control output with ballasts. 20K Hamilton on Electronic will be lower output (and wattage) and Radium on M80 could be in the middle and then 10K on M80 (overdriven) could be ultimate. The T5s could be chosen to help balance any of these... for example, with 20K on Electronic, you could use 6500K bulbs for coloration and growth to offset the halides. For 10K, then Pure Actinic all the way.

You can control heat and electricty with lower photo periods if a fan will not do. If you put a fan over the top of the tank when the lights come on (do not wait for the temp to rise), then heat has always been manageable for me... even in 100+ degree midwest summers.

If you do get SE, then take the glass off of there... all that it does is cut output.

Here is an output example 20K XM (there is no 20K Hamilton on the site) on Electronic vs 20K Radium on M80 - 53 vs 85 PPFD. FWIW - Hammy 10K on M80 is 149.

Thanks jda, the tank is actually 80” long by 22” wide by 24” tall.

And here in Europe I am restricted to Giesemann offerings so the reflectors and ballasts are the ones that com with the units.

But from that BRS video I am sure that is more than enough given they achieve PAR values in the 200-300 at 18” deep, definitely enough for my tank.

 

[jda]

Hamilton ships to Europe. ...worth checking out as another price and data point. 72" Cebu Sun might be worth looking at...

 

[Reef dog]

Unfortunately can’t get on of those this side of the pond. It would have to be the Giesemann Infinity with 3 x 150w plus 4x 80w, 72” fixture.

Likely best to look for the 72” Spectra and go with 3x250 plus 4x80w...

May still go with the 60” Giesemann Aurora... I know the MH T5 would be better but this would have some advantages in terms of heat and power savings... at the likely cost of slower Acro growth. Compromises...

If I do go ahead I’ll be sure to post some PAR measurements.

Fyi I used a par meter recently with my Giesemann Aurora. Now keep in mind that the LEDs on this fixture do not have secondary lenses so it is not a par machine. I wanted t5 and led, but also wanted something appealing over the tank. Mounted 5" above the 24" deep tank and midway down with everything at 100% I'm around 350par. So if your looking for higher par areas you need to have your rock scape higher up in the tank.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Your limitation on the halide side is the reflectors, as always. Bulb choice is still pretty amazing...and for certain setups, there are good reflectors too.

Here's the best 150w DE setup I could find on short notice:

Learn More!
Click Here! 150w HQI Metal Halide Horizontal Pendant

12"x7" so it's pretty small.

Even if you did all 150w halides.....six of these fixtures would only set you back $1800.

I own that one. It’s awful. And was very very expensive when new.

 

[jda]

Don't ever buy any lighting equipment if they will not tell you which ballast is included... T5 also... I guess that this goes for anything really... LED too since drivers matter as well.

I can take some readings of some Hamilton Bimini Sun with 14K Phoenix on M80 if anybody would like. They are legit lights. I also have a 150 HQI running on AquaMedic with a generic 14K off of eBay (it is yellow), but it is on M80.

 

[A. grandis]

On a 24" tank, I would still get SE stuff and control output with ballasts. 20K Hamilton on Electronic will be lower output (and wattage) and Radium on M80 could be in the middle and then 10K on M80 (overdriven) could be ultimate. The T5s could be chosen to help balance any of these... for example, with 20K on Electronic, you could use 6500K bulbs for coloration and growth to offset the halides. For 10K, then Pure Actinic all the way.

You can control heat and electricty with lower photo periods if a fan will not do. If you put a fan over the top of the tank when the lights come on (do not wait for the temp to rise), then heat has always been manageable for me... even in 100+ degree midwest summers.

If you do get SE, then take the glass off of there... all that it does is cut output.

Here is an output example 20K XM (there is no 20K Hamilton on the site) on Electronic vs 20K Radium on M80 - 53 vs 85 PPFD. FWIW - Hammy 10K on M80 is 149.

I couldn't write this in a better way!!
Bulb choice and photoperiod!
Agreed!
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

Don't ever buy any lighting equipment if they will not tell you which ballast is included... T5 also... I guess that this goes for anything really... LED too since drivers matter as well.

I can take some readings of some Hamilton Bimini Sun with 14K Phoenix on M80 if anybody would like. They are legit lights. I also have a 150 HQI running on AquaMedic with a generic 14K off of eBay (it is yellow), but it is on M80.

Please take the readings..
Also, I would love to hear more about removing the lenses from SE bulbs.
How much more do you get by doing that? In what aspects?
Grandis.

 

[mcarroll]

I own that one. It’s awful. And was very very expensive when new.

The only other 150w setup I could find was an aquatraders that uses a plain flat reflector....has to be worse than this one.

Can you characterize "awful" with some comparative PAR or lux numbers or anything? I had some readings from my 150w mini-reflectors we could compare with if you have a used Radium you could check out. I'm just curious after seeing "how low" the numbers from the Geisemann mini-reflector were. (They look like micro-reflectors.)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The only other 150w setup I could find was an aquatraders that uses a plain flat reflector....has to be worse than this one.

Can you characterize "awful" with some comparative PAR or lux numbers or anything? I had some readings from my 150w mini-reflectors we could compare with if you have a used Radium you could check out. I'm just curious after seeing "how low" the numbers from the Geisemann mini-reflector were. (They look like micro-reflectors.)

My SB BB led at 12in over an 18x20 gives me about an 8x10in hot spot. With stock lenses. From 100 to 500. Par
That thing gave me a about a four inch hot spot. You could actually see the hot spot on the bottom of the tank about six-8in wide. That’s about 32 inches from the bottom of the light.

Hot spot so bad mars aqua makes fun of them.

 

[mcarroll]

That thing gave me a about a four inch hot spot. You could actually see the hot spot on the bottom of the tank about six-8in wide. That’s about 32 inches from the bottom of the light.

Hot spot so bad mars aqua makes fun of them.

LOL

I wish I had a perspective on that...I didn't pay attention to anything like hot spots with my Coralife Aqualight halide setup (2 x 150 watt halides, no fluorescents) – it was just the best Radium platform that I could actually afford so I was happy to have it running.

Maybe because it was essentially like an AP700 setup where it had dual emitters, correctly spaced....largely alleviating the hot spot(s) by turning them into a hot zone across the whole middle....not so bad. (I loved it. Still have it. Just can't afford to run it. )

So maybe one of these Hamilton reflectors might be worse than two. How much usable spread do you get at six or twelve inches off the water?

Maybe it would be interesting to see how that flat-reflector AquaTraders fixture performs too.

 

[jda]

In a Bimini Sun with 150q HQI 14K Phoenix on M81 (Hamilton), I am getting 275 ish PAR a foot deep in about 20" radius. Getting 160-170 at the bottom of a 24" tank. 950+ at the surface about 8" under the lamp. These lights are not output monster, but they are also no joke... now if you got a bad one, then I guess that it could be all kinds of bad... Odyssea and Coralife did give a bad name to HQI. 150W HQI is my favorite mixed-reef light. Legit on a good reflector, enough power to grow most anything, anywhere and low wattage for a complete 24"x24" solution that needs no T5 or supplement - 450w for a standard 180 with no shadowing or hotspots is very good and able to grow acros in the rocks and sand-dwelling clams on the bottom. They are also easy to keep cool.