MH efficiency loss vs T5

[KJAG]

Thanks. I know a lot of LED fans would disagree but to get he kind of uniform coverage I like with Radions or other high end LED fixtures in my 80” tank I would need at least 5, preferably 6 dialed down to about 50-60%. However, 6 Radions would set me back 5400€ vs 1800€ for a 72” Sepctra with Dimmable T5 ballasts (controlled by my Profilux 4). It would take 9 years of bulb replacements to justify the cost.

My concern would be heat, hence looking at the infinity. Tank is sitting in the main living room so I do not want to run a chiller... hence my question on 150w MH vs 96w of T5. Or in this case, 450w of MH vs 320w of T5.

Do you have a canopy or will your light be an aesthetic part of your setup? I ask because I come from a hydroponics background and in my opinion that realm is leaps and bounds ahead of the reef hobby in Halide fixtures and ballasts (in terms of function, not aesthetics.) For example, it’s uncommon to run a reflector that is “passively cooled” in the Hydro gardening world. For starters it contributes to shortened bulb life, and adds undesired heat. I run 250W Radiums in a Hydrofarm Phantom reflector that is exhausted into the attic by a centrifugal fan( which as a bonus also boosts negative pressure and draws in fresh air from outdoors to help with tank C02/ pH) At least the Infinity has a Lens, as I’m blown away that some run open reflectors above their tanks. Just a thought in case you run a canopy and will be hiding the light. An actively, not passively cooled Halide(s) would solve the heat issue and you can always supplement with T5’s. Cons: air cooled hoods are bulky. I run them behind my 225 in- wall because they’re not visible from the display but will be going with an Infinity for my next 52 build which will require an aesthetic fixture.

 

[VJV]

Do you have a canopy or will your light be an aesthetic part of your setup? I ask because I come from a hydroponics background and in my opinion that realm is leaps and bounds ahead of the reef hobby in Halide fixtures and ballasts (in terms of function, not aesthetics.) For example, it’s uncommon to run a reflector that is “passively cooled” in the Hydro gardening world. For starters it contributes to shortened bulb life, and adds undesired heat. I run 250W Radiums in a Hydrofarm Phantom reflector that is exhausted into the attic by a centrifugal fan( which as a bonus also boosts negative pressure and draws in fresh air from outdoors to help with tank C02/ pH) At least the Infinity has a Lens, as I’m blown away that some run open reflectors above their tanks. Just a thought in case you run a canopy and will be hiding the light. An actively, not passively cooled Halide(s) would solve the heat issue and you can always supplement with T5’s. Cons: air cooled hoods are bulky. I run them behind my 225 in- wall because they’re not visible from the display but will be going with an Infinity for my next 52 build which will require an aesthetic fixture.

Yes, no Canopy. Light needs to be as good looking as the reef. Hence the alternative being either the Giesemann Spectra (going for SE 250w) or the infinity (going for DE 150w). [emoji4]

 

[jda]

150W on real M81 HQI ballasts put out near as much output as a standard 250W MH on a M58 ballast. 14k Phoenix is available in this wattage and is a great bulb. These would be my choice for any mixed reef that I ran that did not need a ton of output... and they do not put off a ton of heat.

Unless you are keeping a lot of acropora and/or have a really deep tank, 150W 14K Phoenix on M81 are enough light for anything. Anybody who doubts them have not used them. They are not as much output as a 250W on HQI, but why would you expect them to be?

I would not use a 150W HQI bulb on an electronic ballast - the output is weak.

It is unfortunate that the 150W 14K phoenix is not on the reefs.com lighting guide that Sanjay did. It would be cool to compare it.

 

[A. grandis]

Hi. I now this is a simple question with a very technical and difficult reply but the reason I ask is the following: we have seen in videos from BRS that 8 bulb T5 fixtures from ATI produce a ton of PAR, more than is actually needed. They tested it using 24w bulb fixtures.

Now the question is, if instead of an 8 bulb we would use a hybrid 4 bulb T5 plus a 150w MH, which would produce the higher par...?

Understand there are reflectors and other bits at play here, but from a pure wattage perspective we would be “replacing” 4 24w T5 bulbs (or 96w) by a 150w MH, so a 50% increase in wattage.

However, from what I have read and understand a lot of the watts in MH are transformed into heat rather than actual lighting (surely the gurus will walk all over this statements but anyway) so at the end of the day, theoretically at least, how many watts of MH would I need to replace 96 w of T5.

Would love to hear your thoughts and please, no LED comparison as really I want to keep it between MH and T5.

Get the Spectra and a selectable ballast like the Luxcore.
You can use 175W halides and the 4 X t5s. That will give you what you need and the option to upgrade to a 250W if you want.
I wouldn't use 150W bulbs for that tank and wouldn't have a DE fixture either.
Spectra is the way to go!
Grandis.

 

[jackson6745]

Get the Spectra and a selectable ballast like the Luxcore.
You can use 175W halides and the 4 X t5s. That will give you what you need and the option to upgrade to a 250W if you want.
I wouldn't use 150W bulbs for that tank and wouldn't have a DE fixture either.
Spectra is the way to go!
Grandis.

Yup!

 

[mcarroll]

https://www.ushio.com/files/specifications/aqualite-metal-halide-for-aquariums.pdf is about the only difinitive info I could find on 150w halides that included "normal reef bulbs".

7000 lumens from an Ushio 10,000K @ 150w would be a good anchor for your 4x florescent. You can see what a hit you take with 14KK and 20KK though....those options are not as good.

 

[jda]

There are all kinds of readings on the reefs.com/lighting page for 150W bulbs. It just does not have the best one (arguably, but hard to argue) in both spectrum and output.

 

[KJAG]

150W on real M81 HQI ballasts put out near as much output as a standard 250W MH on a M58 ballast. 14k Phoenix is available in this wattage and is a great bulb. These would be my choice for any mixed reef that I ran that did not need a ton of output... and they do not put off a ton of heat.

Unless you are keeping a lot of acropora and/or have a really deep tank, 150W 14K Phoenix on M81 are enough light for anything. Anybody who doubts them have not used them. They are not as much output as a 250W on HQI, but why would you expect them to be?

I would not use a 150W HQI bulb on an electronic ballast - the output is weak.

It is unfortunate that the 150W 14K phoenix is not on the reefs.com lighting guide that Sanjay did. It would be cool to compare it.

I agree.

 

[VJV]

https://www.ushio.com/files/specifications/aqualite-metal-halide-for-aquariums.pdf is about the only difinitive info I could find on 150w halides that included "normal reef bulbs".

7000 lumens from an Ushio 10,000K @ 150w would be a good anchor for your 4x florescent. You can see what a hit you take with 14KK and 20KK though....those options are not as good.

Thanks mcarrol, but I really prefer a "bluer" look. Even with 4 B+ not sure if this would not be a bit too warm white....? Maybe because it is only 150W it will not completely wash out the output of the T5s...

Giesemann has 14.500k and 21.000k bulbs. I could try the 14.500 with 4 B+.

On the other hand, I do hear the comments about the flexibility that the 250s give in the sense that I could run them alternate to the T5s and still have some firepower if at some point my tank requires it.

 

[VJV]

Having said all this, and back to the original title, I guess these BRS videos confirm that a T5 unit is much more efficient translating watts to PAR than a MH

 

[VJV]

Here it is clear that the 8 bulb ATI produces more PAR that he Spectra, while using 45% less energy. Reflectors and other stuff obviou,say makes a difference but I would never have said this would be the result.

Now, another question is whether one needs 500 PAR at the top.

In my particular case I don't and the fact that I need 2 36" T5 units to cover my tank length is a negative.

 

[A. grandis]

If you look into PAR alone to decide your best fixture, you are going to make a big mistake.
Change the bulbs and you will change PAR as well! Big time.
PAR is only part of the equation.
What your PAR meter shows isn't necessarily the best for your corals!
PAR is also a great way to make videos and SELL fixtures!

Grandis.

 

[Reef dog]

Just wanted to contribute, I run a 60" Giesemann Aurora over my 72" 180gal, 24" deep fixture 5" above the water line. I am growing sticks 6" off the bottom on the ends where I am only at 100+ par. I wouldn't get caught up in the par and spread issue on a 60" fixture over a 72" tank. Just my 2 cents

 

[VJV]

Just wanted to contribute, I run a 60" Giesemann Aurora over my 72" 180gal, 24" deep fixture 5" above the water line. I am growing sticks 6" off the bottom on the ends where I am only at 100+ par. I wouldn't get caught up in the par and spread issue on a 60" fixture over a 72" tank. Just my 2 cents

Yes, problem is 72" is the limit for the Aurora, in my opinion. What is the length of the coral area you ar lighting? I gather you are not growing coral wall to wall on your tank...?

Would love to run try the Aurora but in my 80" tank I have a total length of 72" that I need to cover and I'm afraid the Aurora would not stretch that far.

 

[Reef dog]

Yes, problem is 72" is the limit for the Aurora, in my opinion. What is the length of the coral area you ar lighting? I gather you are not growing coral wall to wall on your tank...?

Would love to run try the Aurora but in my 80" tank I have a total length of 72" that I need to cover and I'm afraid the Aurora would not stretch that far.

Yes wall to wall, I have acans, war coral, cyphastrea all on the bottom or encrusting the rock work with only enough space to clean the glass. My sticks are a few inches in from them mayby 4 inches from the glass. They are outside of the fixture length, I hope this helps. You are only really talking about 4 more inches on each side, depending on your rock scape you can easily put lower demanding light corals in those areas and use the fixture you have.

 

[VJV]

Thanks. That is encouraging but the thing is my tank is a peninsula and one of the rock structures starts at the overflow wall, so it is not 4” to each side but rather 8” all on one side.

With my current 60” 8x80w Matrixx that end of the tank is dimly lit and the fish swimming in that area are in the shade.

I understand that T5 longitudinal dispersion is limited and the leds may do a better job extending beyond the fixture (longitudinally speaking, if it makes sense), but still unclear whether it would be enough.

One thing is for certain: my next tank will be 72”, not 80” long [emoji1]

 

[jda]

Did he say which ballast that they drove that Radium 20K with? I do not want to watch a 20 minute video (sorry). A Radium 20K on the spec M80 ballast should be putting out over 1000 PAR 6" under the water directly under the bulb in a reflector that small. I wonder if they had glass over the bulb, as well.

I would not sweat 4 inches on the end of each side.

 

[VJV]

I do not believe he mentions the ballast.

 

[VJV]

Bear in mind the fixture is some 6,5” above the water.

 

[jda]

Those results look way too low for me. Something is not right. Also, don't sweat PAR from a MH... the PAR meter stops capturing output below 440 and gets nearly nothing below 400 and nothing over 700 - all of this is important to pigments, proteins and growth. There is valuable output in MH that a PAR meter cannot capture... same thing with Actinic T5 bulbs or ones with significant amounts of output below 410nm.

I will test mine later, but about 6" under the water, I have about 1300PAR and 700 at 15 inches and 300-350 27 inches deep. This is on LumenBrite SE (normal size) with 20K Radium and M80. FWIW - I have a Hammy 10K right next to it also on M80 and it has about 2100 PAR 6 inches right under the bulb... but it falls off pretty quickly as well. I have an Apogee 510.