Why does nitrite block the cycle every time I start a new tank?

[BilboB]

Sounds good, let us know what the ammonia concntration is after about 24 hours

I forgot to do it yesterday, but today the API test reads zero ammonia... confirming that ammonia-utilizing bacteria aren't substantially inhibited by high nitrite levels.

 

[Fish Fan]

I forgot to do it yesterday, but today the API test reads zero ammonia... confirming that ammonia-utilizing bacteria aren't substantially inhibited by high nitrite levels.

Sounds like you're in good shape then

 

[Clarkjw2002]

Just FYI, every time I've started a new tank with dry rock it would take 20-40 days for the nitrites to cycle to 0. With live rock it was only a few days. They will come down eventually.

 

[BilboB]

Sounds like you're in good shape then

Since there's no fish in the tank, should I keep it cycled by always making sure it always has a piece of shrimp?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Since there's no fish in the tank, should I keep it cycled by always making sure it always has a piece of shrimp?

I would not. How long until you add fish?

 

[BilboB]

I would not. How long until you add fish?

No idea. I've had several disease outbreaks over the last year, so this tank is just waiting for the next outbreak. Could be 1 month, could be 6 months.

 

[Fish Fan]

No idea. I've had several disease outbreaks over the last year, so this tank is just waiting for the next outbreak. Could be 1 month, could be 6 months.

These bacteria can remain viable for some time even without adding fish food or ammonia. But, you can keep them happy with an occasional pinch of fish food from time to time.

In your situation you could also leave some bio media in your main display tank so that it's seeded with bacteria and immediately ready if you need to start a QT tank quickly. I like to use plastic kitchen pot scrubbies from my local dollar store as biomedia, and I suggest that pretty much everyone runs some biomedia in their main tank in case a hospital tank is ever needed (and most people are unprepared). This way, you don't have to have your QT tank running all the time, but you be able to setup and run your QT tank whenever it's needed.

Or, consider keeping a safe, peaceful fish in your QT tank all the time. Black Mollies are an inexpensive and hardy freshwater fish that's really a brackish water fish, and then can easily be kept in full saltwater, keeping your QT tank up a running with a viable biofilter.

I hope this helps!

 

[BilboB]

These bacteria can remain viable for some time even without adding fish food or ammonia. But, you can keep them happy with an occasional pinch of fish food from time to time.

In your situation you could also leave some bio media in your main display tank so that it's seeded with bacteria and immediately ready if you need to start a QT tank quickly. I like to use plastic kitchen pot scrubbies from my local dollar store as biomedia, and I suggest that pretty much everyone runs some biomedia in their main tank in case a hospital tank is ever needed (and most people are unprepared). This way, you don't have to have your QT tank running all the time, but you be able to setup and run your QT tank whenever it's needed.

Or, consider keeping a safe, peaceful fish in your QT tank all the time. Black Mollies are an inexpensive and hardy freshwater fish that's really a brackish water fish, and then can easily be kept in full saltwater.

I hope this helps!

This "occasional pinch of food" worries me - how do I know when it's time to add, and how much should I add? I know the details aren't critical as long as some bacteria survive, but I'm a bit neurotic.

I think storing bio media in my DT wouldn't look so nice. I don't have a sump or a back chamber, so the media would be sitting on the sand. I'd rather just keep a 10-gallon QT tank running, ready for whenever it's needed.

 

[Fish Fan]

This "occasional pinch of food" worries me - how do I know when it's time to add, and how much should I add? I know the details aren't critical as long as some bacteria survive, but I'm a bit neurotic.

There's a wide margin of error here where you'll be fine; don't over think it, just toss a pinch of fish food in once a week or so. These bacteria can live without being *fed* everyday, and remain viable when needed.

I think storing bio media in my DT wouldn't look so nice. I don't have a sump or a back chamber, so the media would be sitting on the sand. I'd rather just keep a 10-gallon QT tank running, ready for whenever it's needed.

I'm not suggesting that you or anyone keeps unsightly biomedia in your display tank

You must have *something* for a filter, and adding some small plastic bioballs or the pot scrubbies I mentioned I would think would be possible. Then, you can pull this media and use it to basically instantly cycle a QT tank when needed.

You can also try a Black Molly in your tank as a permanent resident, you can find them at PetCo for about $3. Good algae eaters too

 

[BilboB]

There's a wide margin of error here where you'll be fine; don't over think it, just toss a pinch of fish food in once a week or so. These bacteria can live without being *fed* everyday, and remain viable when needed.

OK, thanks.

 

[Louis Z]

I now add a clump of cheatomorpha in my tanks that are started new . I consider it a throwaway after being in a QT tank . I wonder if that would delay the the ammonia oxidizing bacteria from peaking quickly . I do that and wonder is it the cheato or the bacteria growing on the high surface area of the cheato that keeps ammonia/nitrite /nitrate down

 

[BilboB]

Update: it's been 8 days but the nitrite level is still high. What's been preventing the nitrite-utilizing bacteria from taking up all the nitrite? They're either inhibited or no longer in the tank.

 

[ReneReef]

If I understand correctly, you added ammonia a second time and now your nitrite is high again. As has been established in this topic, nitrite reduction is slow. So what is the surprise here?

You have dealt with “high” nitrite before. Nothing new this time around. All the necessary advice on how to proceed has been given.
The only advice I’d like to repeat: toss that nitrite test in the bin.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Update: it's been 8 days but the nitrite level is still high. What's been preventing the nitrite-utilizing bacteria from taking up all the nitrite? They're either inhibited or no longer in the tank.

Or just naturally slower to grow than you were expecting.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Update: it's been 8 days but the nitrite level is still high. What's been preventing the nitrite-utilizing bacteria from taking up all the nitrite? They're either inhibited or no longer in the tank.

It is NaCl or most likely in my opinion the chloride ion that is inhibiting nitrite utilization, see here and here for example.

In my theory, which I haven't been able to confirm yet, the nitrite and chloride ions are too similar to be treated completely different by uptake systems. It is the chloride uptake of freshwater fish that causes the toxic nitrite accumulation in freshwater fish. Since saltwater fish don't accumulate chloride nitrite is not toxic to them.

In the same way, according to my theory, nitrite oxidizing bacteria cannot completely discriminate against chloride. From a certain concentration of chloride upwards, chloride inhibits nitrite uptake and processing by displacement and competition (--> competitive inhibition of enzymes).

 

[Hans-Werner]

Since nitrite oxidizing bacteria are chemoautotrophs and get their energy from nitrite oxidation, inhibition of nitrite oxidation by NaCl may slow their growth, stop their growth and may ultimately kill them. This would mean adding nitrite oxidating bacteria to saltwater is useless. This should be tested and verified or falsified. If it is true you can wait for good nitrite oxidation endlessly, it will never catch up in saltwater.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It is NaCl or most likely in my opinion the chloride ion that is inhibiting nitrite utilization, see here and here for example.

In my theory, which I haven't been able to confirm yet, the nitrite and chloride ions are too similar to be treated completely different by uptake systems. It is the chloride uptake of freshwater fish that causes the toxic nitrite accumulation in freshwater fish. Since saltwater fish don't accumulate chloride nitrite is not toxic to them.

In the same way, according to my theory, nitrite oxidizing bacteria cannot completely discriminate against chloride. From a certain concentration of chloride upwards, chloride inhibits nitrite uptake and processing by displacement and competition (--> competitive inhibition of enzymes).

That is certainly a sensible hypothesis. :)

 

[Fish Fan]

Update: it's been 8 days but the nitrite level is still high. What's been preventing the nitrite-utilizing bacteria from taking up all the nitrite? They're either inhibited or no longer in the tank.

You're fine

There's nothing wrong with the nitrite oxidizing bacteria, they just take a little longer to populate than the ammonia oxidizing bacteria.

If you can add about 2.0 ppm ammonia and in 24 hours the ammonia is under about 0.50 ppm or so, then you're cycled. You really don't have to worry about the nitrite at all, and at this point I think it's just complicating things for you

 

[Subsea]

I am glad that I threw out my test kits and let nature operate my ecosystem, so I don’t
Fixate on chemistry.

 

[BilboB]

It is NaCl or most likely in my opinion the chloride ion that is inhibiting nitrite utilization, see here and here for example.

In my theory, which I haven't been able to confirm yet, the nitrite and chloride ions are too similar to be treated completely different by uptake systems. It is the chloride uptake of freshwater fish that causes the toxic nitrite accumulation in freshwater fish. Since saltwater fish don't accumulate chloride nitrite is not toxic to them.

In the same way, according to my theory, nitrite oxidizing bacteria cannot completely discriminate against chloride. From a certain concentration of chloride upwards, chloride inhibits nitrite uptake and processing by displacement and competition (--> competitive inhibition of enzymes).

Google says: chloride ions block nitrite transport across fish gills but do not block nitrite uptake in nitrite-oxidizing bacteria.