Tank pest/Bacterial or other issue?

[AB's reef]

Hi Folks,

Friend of mine's having some serious trouble with his tank, he's lost a lot of acropora over the past month but this morning he sent me a photo of something on his chalice and wonder if it could possibly related to the RTN he's getting with the acropora?

Coral can look fine during the day but on a night they are bailing out and basically a white Skelton by the morning.

He turned his lights down quite a bit on someone else's advice, roughly around the time the trouble started and I'm leaning towards light starvation causing a metabolic issue which is resulting in them bailing out to conserve energy?

Other possible route we're going down is a bacterial pathogens such as Vibrio.
His tank has a chiller fitted and the water parameters are very stable (trident AMC and NP fitted, dosing done hourly)
but I can't see the link between stresses weakening the corals immunity to the pathogens to all of a sudden and causing a very healthy tank for 2+ years to start to have major issues all of a sudden?

Absolutely any information is welcome at this point.

Thanks in advance for any response.

Best
Andrew.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

There's really not enough info to offer suggestions....
The picture of the chalice looks fine, is there something on this pic we are supposed to see?
"roughly around the time the trouble started", when did the trouble start?
How old is his tank? Can you share parameters and pictures?

 

[AB's reef]

There's really not enough info to offer suggestions....
The picture of the chalice looks fine, is there something on this pic we are supposed to see?
"roughly around the time the trouble started", when did the trouble start?
How old is his tank? Can you share parameters and pictures?

For the chalice, the white blotchy areas in the photo; the issue is the blotchy parts that look like substrate, he's saying they're attached, soft and can be moved with a finger but not detached this is the first day he's noticed them.

Tank is 4 years old, Acros have been successfully growing from frags to colonies for the past year (was LPS before he made the switch to acropora)
Issues started a month ago and have been ongoing since, anywhere between 1 and 4 colonies or frags have been dying off overnight.

He's sent me pictures this morning of the tank (file Aaron 8 is before the Sps switch)
Photos of the frag racks are in his frag tank which is plumbed into he main display that tank is also having the exact same issues with overnight RTN.
I'm waiting on photos of any of the effected coral but I believe they're totally stripped to skeleton, no signs of eggs, pests or anything... no new corals on or near the time that the issues started (1 month ago)

Parameters and daily test amounts.
Cal 400 twice daily
Mag 1420 twice daily
Alk 8.2 4 times daily
N 6 once daily
P 0.04 once daily
Temp is a consistant 78.8f/26c
PH is 8.2-8.5 night/day.

ICP test and trace elements adjusted monthly, last ICP was 1 week ago showing no abnormalities.

 

[AB's reef]

Photos of the most recently effect corals, no signs of any pests (bite marks, eggs, bugs other than harmless copepods which he doses to the tank weekly)
Corals look healthy with good P/E until the next morning after they've started to strip overnight.

 

[AB's reef]

Bump, any ideas welcome….

 

[EnterName]

There are various products against STN and RTN. They might offer some relief or at least reduce the number of obligatory ciliates (e.g. Philaster sp.) that swarm corals once they shed dying tissue. An actual treatment would require antibiotics and some drug against protozoans in a QT tank. As you probably won't get access to the required drugs easily, you can only try those products and/or iodine dips. How effective vs stressful they are:
I don't know.

Healthy corals should not get overrun by an infection (if it actually is a bacterial infection), at least not all of them. I assume something is wrong (e.g. light, flow, water quality). Whenever I'm unsure, I get an ICP-MS test. While they certainly have their flaws, it's the best accessible way we have to double check our testing kits and get an idea of the trace elements/ion balance in our tanks. Once you know the details, fix the missing trace elements or remove excessive pollutants, and then make sure to use a daily trace element mixture, so essentials like iron, zinc, manganese, and molybdenum, which are important for photosynthesis, nutrient uptake and transport, as well as calcification, are covered.

It's absolutely possible to keep healthy corals without those mixtures, but right now you want to optimize the environment to support recovery.

 

[AB's reef]

There are various products against STN and RTN. They might offer some relief or at least reduce the number of obligatory ciliates (e.g. Philaster sp.) that swarm corals once they shed dying tissue. An actual treatment would require antibiotics and some drug against protozoans in a QT tank. As you probably won't get access to the required drugs easily, you can only try those products and/or iodine dips. How effective vs stressful they are:
I don't know.

Healthy corals should not get overrun by an infection (if it actually is a bacterial infection), at least not all of them. I assume something is wrong (e.g. light, flow, water quality). Whenever I'm unsure, I get an ICP-MS test. While they certainly have their flaws, it's the best accessible way we have to double check our testing kits and get an idea of the trace elements/ion balance in our tanks. Once you know the details, fix the missing trace elements or remove excessive pollutants, and then make sure to use a daily trace element mixture, so essentials like iron, zinc, manganese, and molybdenum, which are important for photosynthesis, nutrient uptake and transport, as well as calcification, are covered.

It's absolutely possible to keep healthy corals without those mixtures, but right now you want to optimize the environment to support recovery.

Thanks for the reply, I'm guessing the chalice in the photo/white lumps are not related or is it possible for the same pathogen to effect the chalice also? Someone has suggested the lumps are menstrual filaments but after looking at the photo again I'm not convinced?

I'm leaning more towards the Idea of bacteria being the cause of RTN; at first I thought that lowering the lights was causing a metabolic issue but the longer the issue has went on I'm most likely putting the lights down to being the stress event that's caused any breakdown in the corals immunity to pathogens.
I know a lot of Vibrio strains are triggered by heat but I don't think his tank has been over 79f...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty certain that potentially harmful bacteria are in the tank all the time but only affect the corals during stress events?
I'm asking this in thinking that going down the road of QT, bacterial treatments (could source from a vet) or iodine dipping would be pointless unless the corals have first recovered from the stress event which would be very difficult due to recovery time from light stresses (If the lighting was he cause) but might be an idea as a last resort to try and salvage any effected corals by fragging etc?

I've advised him to send a icp/ms away asap.

Thanks again,
Andrew.

 

[EnterName]

I'm guessing the chalice in the photo/white lumps are not related or is it possible for the same pathogen to effect the chalice also? Someone has suggested the lumps are menstrual filaments but after looking at the photo again I'm not convinced?

Those lumps don't look like the mesenterial filaments I usually see in corals, but I haven't seen those in Chalice corals yet, so it's possible. It would be a pretty typical response to something being off, so it could very well be that.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty certain that potentially harmful bacteria are in the tank all the time but only affect the corals during stress events?

I assume they are present at all times. I haven't read scientific literature about this, but this is usually how it works with most bacteria and also certain protozoa. But this also means that corals can deal with them if they're healthy, so something must have been wrong.

I'm asking this in thinking that going down the road of QT, bacterial treatments (could source from a vet) or iodine dipping would be pointless unless the corals have first recovered from the stress event which would be very difficult due to recovery time from light stresses (If the lighting was he cause) but might be an idea as a last resort to try and salvage any effected corals by fragging etc?

An iodine dip will probably be very stressful and I don't know how well it works, so the QT approach sounds good in my opinion, if you can set up an appropriate tank with stable water parameters in time.
I don't know if fragging helps as there seems to be no scientific data on the issue. All I was able to find is anecdotal/hobbyist stuff.

I've advised him to send a icp/ms away asap.

I would usually recommend Oceamo for ICP-MS, but Christoph is still on vacation until Wednesday and shipping to Austria will take a while. ATI has a lab in the US and is very reliable as well, imo.

Disclaimer: I'm not a pharmacist/vet/whatever. They will know better than me, and there are people here on this forum with the appropriate education who might be able to help you better with the exact pharmaceuticals.

However, I have read a little bit about STN/RTN/white band disease, etc. for a post in my microscopy thread (see post #144, page 8). It mostly focuses on the secondary pathogens in coral diseases because bacteria are often impossible to identify with light microscopy, but either way I might be able to share some of the information I gathered beforehand:

I think Amoxicillin is the "standard" antibiotic for stony coral tissue loss diseases in reef aquaria, but Ampicillin apparently works great as well and dissolves more easily, while Gentamicin didn't get the job done in the study I found.

I assume the vet will prescribe Amoxicillin and that's perfectly fine. You will probably find tutorials on R2R or somewhere else on how to properly use it for STN/RTN, however down below I will add some sources where you can find the treatments that were used by scientists with these antibiotics.

The antibiotics will already cover the important part if it is truly a bacterial disease like RTN / White band disease, etc.

For the secondary pathogens, Metronidazole would do the job. It's an antibiotic and antiprotozoal, but it didn't affect the primary pathogens, so it isn't much use unless combined with one of the pharmaceuticals above that actually kill the bacteria.

According to the study, Paromomycin sulfate got rid of both issues at once, but apparently it's a fairly expensive pharmaceutical, so I doubt that's what you will get.

Sources:
Sweet, Croquer & Bythell, 2014
Neely, Macaulay, Hower & Dobler, 2020
Smith, Leary, Craggs, Bythell & Sweet, 2015

I still hope a few other people will chime in to help out, because these treatments are always difficult and risky, so maybe there are better approaches or someone has more information.

 

[EnterName]

@Jay Hemdal sorry to bother you.
You don't happen to know a thing or two about Amoxicillin, Ampicillin, Metronidazole, and/or Paromomycin sulfate? I know you mostly concentrate on fish diseases, but you were the first one to come to my mind when talking about pharmaceuticals in reef tanks.

@AB's reef has some tissue necrosis issues, and we were working through the pharmaceuticals that were tried against common stony coral diseases in some studies. It's obvious that treatment needs to happen in a quarantine tank, but I would really appreciate someone giving a second opinion, because I most certainly am no expert on pharmaceuticals.

Maybe the smart #reefsquad folks have some input as well

 

[Fish Fan]

@Jay Hemdal sorry to bother you.
You don't happen to know a thing or two about Amoxicillin, Ampicillin, Metronidazole, and/or Paromomycin sulfate? I know you mostly concentrate on fish diseases, but you were the first one to come to my mind when talking about pharmaceuticals in reef tanks.

@AB's reef has some tissue necrosis issues, and we were working through the pharmaceuticals that were tried against common stony coral diseases in some studies. It's obvious that treatment needs to happen in a quarantine tank, but I would really appreciate someone giving a second opinion, because I most certainly am no expert on pharmaceuticals.

Maybe the smart #reefsquad folks have some input as well

I personally have no great insight here, but in addition to asking Jay I would reach out to @Randy Holmes-Farley who has a strong background in antibiotics

I hope you figure out what's going on!

 

[tbrown]

@Fish Styx

@billyocean

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal sorry to bother you.
You don't happen to know a thing or two about Amoxicillin, Ampicillin, Metronidazole, and/or Paromomycin sulfate? I know you mostly concentrate on fish diseases, but you were the first one to come to my mind when talking about pharmaceuticals in reef tanks.

@AB's reef has some tissue necrosis issues, and we were working through the pharmaceuticals that were tried against common stony coral diseases in some studies. It's obvious that treatment needs to happen in a quarantine tank, but I would really appreciate someone giving a second opinion, because I most certainly am no expert on pharmaceuticals.

Maybe the smart #reefsquad folks have some input as well

Sorry - I don't have much experience with using ABX in reef systems - I mainly focus on fish diseases.

 

[billyocean]

Ok...just getting a feel here...

Why were the lights turned down in the first place?

I know there were no "bite marks" present but I've seen thr newer type of aefw and it doesnt show itself like the regular aefw most people know. Eggs are sporadic instead of clusters...they attack a colony overnight and it looks like rtn....not bite marks. The only reason I mention them is because of this picture

Could be wrong but that looks like mariculture plugs on those acros...which is what sent me down that possible cause.

Not my final.answer but something to consider.

 

[billyocean]

Once we know if its mariculture and there's no pests like the newer kind of aefw (which I've seen people think are black bugs), you can proceed further into investigating. There are certain things like cipro or chemi clean that can do things for bacteria...but as a last resort and with caution.

 

[sjfishguy]

What’s he use for his RO/DI?

 

[AB's reef]

Those lumps don't look like the mesenterial filaments I usually see in corals, but I haven't seen those in Chalice corals yet, so it's possible. It would be a pretty typical response to something being off, so it could very well be that.

Thanks, I don't see them being filaments either, for a short period of time I thought it could be a reaction to chemical warfare, he does keep a fair amount of large Goni's in the tank as well as a few zoa colonies.

I assume they are present at all times. I haven't read scientific literature about this, but this is usually how it works with most bacteria and also certain protozoa. But this also means that corals can deal with them if they're healthy, so something must have been wrong.


An iodine dip will probably be very stressful and I don't know how well it works, so the QT approach sounds good in my opinion, if you can set up an appropriate tank with stable water parameters in time.
I don't know if fragging helps as there seems to be no scientific data on the issue. All I was able to find is anecdotal/hobbyist stuff.


I would usually recommend Oceamo for ICP-MS, but Christoph is still on vacation until Wednesday and shipping to Austria will take a while. ATI has a lab in the US and is very reliable as well, imo.

I've told him to use the Oceamo from now on, I don't trust the current brand he's using; I done a few salt quality tests recently when I changed salt brand, their tests come back with some implausible results so I switched to Oceamo at that point.

I think while there an option to frag/not frag it might be worth having him try both and see if there's any difference in the result.

Disclaimer: I'm not a pharmacist/vet/whatever. They will know better than me, and there are people here on this forum with the appropriate education who might be able to help you better with the exact pharmaceuticals.

However, I have read a little bit about STN/RTN/white band disease, etc. for a post in my microscopy thread (see post #144, page 8). It mostly focuses on the secondary pathogens in coral diseases because bacteria are often impossible to identify with light microscopy, but either way I might be able to share some of the information I gathered beforehand:

I think Amoxicillin is the "standard" antibiotic for stony coral tissue loss diseases in reef aquaria, but Ampicillin apparently works great as well and dissolves more easily, while Gentamicin didn't get the job done in the study I found.

I assume the vet will prescribe Amoxicillin and that's perfectly fine. You will probably find tutorials on R2R or somewhere else on how to properly use it for STN/RTN, however down below I will add some sources where you can find the treatments that were used by scientists with these antibiotics.

The antibiotics will already cover the important part if it is truly a bacterial disease like RTN / White band disease, etc.

For the secondary pathogens, Metronidazole would do the job. It's an antibiotic and antiprotozoal, but it didn't affect the primary pathogens, so it isn't much use unless combined with one of the pharmaceuticals above that actually kill the bacteria.

According to the study, Paromomycin sulfate got rid of both issues at once, but apparently it's a fairly expensive pharmaceutical, so I doubt that's what you will get.

Sources:
Sweet, Croquer & Bythell, 2014
Neely, Macaulay, Hower & Dobler, 2020
Smith, Leary, Craggs, Bythell & Sweet, 2015

I still hope a few other people will chime in to help out, because these treatments are always difficult and risky, so maybe there are better approaches or someone has more information.

Thank you very much, posting the sources is very helpful as well, I'll give them a read asap.
Amoxicillin would be very handy as I have some I the house, I'll speak to a vet on Sunday and see about prescribing any of the other antibiotics mentioned in the studies or a secondary such as Metronidazole.
Hopefully a single treatment would be less stresful but I understand there's no guarantees with stressed corals.

I'm waiting on a Phone call from him this morning with an update on the tank so fingers crossed that losses are minimal today and he can get his spare displace tank in a position to QT any newly effected corals asap.

Thanks again, you're a massive help!
Andrew

 

[AB's reef]

I personally have no great insight here, but in addition to asking Jay I would reach out to @Randy Holmes-Farley who has a strong background in antibiotics

I hope you figure out what's going on!

Thanks for looking, its 1 I've never encounter before, my own personal tank has had issues in the past but nothing on this scale and its normally been down to something stupid I've done or equipment failure.

Any treatment we try and the outcome will be posted onto the forum.

 

[AB's reef]

Ok...just getting a feel here...

Why were the lights turned down in the first place?

I know there were no "bite marks" present but I've seen thr newer type of aefw and it doesnt show itself like the regular aefw most people know. Eggs are sporadic instead of clusters...they attack a colony overnight and it looks like rtn....not bite marks. The only reason I mention them is because of this picture

Could be wrong but that looks like mariculture plugs on those acros...which is what sent me down that possible cause.

Not my final.answer but something to consider.

He turned the lights down because a aquacutured Acropora supplier in the UK told him that his issue keeping Tenuis was due to too much par and turning the lights down came with no issues at all.
(His tank was 560 par top of rocks and 290 at sand bed) tested with a Apogee MQ510)
I doubted every part this advice and tried to tell him to never adjust his tank for 1 coral, my advice on that matter is that it was probably placement and he would be better to move the coral than to risk all the other but here we are...


Yeah these are the mariculture corals he got around 12 months ago, he was regularly dipping these corals before he made the full switch to acropora from LPS and the tile was removed and inspected.

I have read on reef builders about the newer AEFW but I kind of ruled out that theory unless they are immune to current dipping methods? and that the tank was running fine for 12+ months without any issue; ironically the Mariculture corals seem to be some of the less effected... Anything we could really be looking for on the corals that would definitively rule out the newer AEFW? maybe using red-light or any light at night to look for activity?

Thank you for getting involved!

Andrew.

 

[AB's reef]

Once we know if its mariculture and there's no pests like the newer kind of aefw (which I've seen people think are black bugs), you can proceed further into investigating. There are certain things like cipro or chemi clean that can do things for bacteria...but as a last resort and with caution.

Perfect, I have access to Cipro and Milbex if we can try and narrow this down, a lot of inspection has been done on the corals since they were added to the tank and the sudden wave of RNT has me leaning towards Bacteria but I'm open to any advice on other possible causes, especially if there's something I may have missed when seeking out pests.

 

[AB's reef]

What’s he use for his RO/DI?

Thanks for getting involved, He's using a 4 stage RODI unit fitted with an inline TDS meter.
Anything we should be looking for when it comes to his RODI that wouldn't show on TDS or ICP?

Thanks again,
Andrew