My Collected Thoughts on N and P Dosing

[User1]

Interesting. But if you have either or both then there isn't dosing required.

This is only for those who shoot, or have, zero of either. Correct? At least that has always been my understanding.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Interesting. But if you have either or both then there isn't dosing required.

This is only for those who shoot, or have, zero of either. Correct? At least that has always been my understanding.

Really need a little of both, but this is clearly a broad statement. As we have both have said, each tank is clearly different. I've have always advocated a good place to be is 5-10ppm N03 and 0.02 P04. Not extreme on both and mostly workable in most tanks, exceptions are there. Pest algae tanks with little or no corals, stripping to 0 on both in most cases is okay.

 

[User1]

Really need a little of both, but this is clearly a broad statement. As we have both have said, each tank is clearly different. I've have always advocated a good place to be is 5-10ppm N03 and 0.02 P04. Not extreme on both and mostly workable in most tanks, exceptions are there. Pest algae tanks with little or no corals, stripping to 0 on both in most cases is okay.

Understood, and thanks. In my case I do not have to dose because, well, I have too much I'm sure In any case I was just wondering so thank you for explaining.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

The only time I like dosing nutrients is when carbon dosing and one is way to high and the other reads zero. Using one to balance the other out really works great and every time I have done it the system stayed good after a few weeks and I never needed to dose again.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Jda so you don't have a reason that the nitrate dosing is actually bad, your just saying corals probably aren't using it directly?

 

[Sallstrom]

I'm pretty sure dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4 have saved some of the tanks I run at work, many times over the years. Now they are tools in my toolkit that I don't want to be without

 

[ramona]

I'm pretty sure dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4 have saved some of the tanks I run at work, many times over the years. Now they are tools in my toolkit that I don't want to be without

Could you please elaborate on your tools? Thank you

 

[jda]

He is saying that he uses Potassium Nitrate and Monopotassium Phosphate to raise the levels in some of the tanks that he cares for. He has them around in case he needs them.

 

[HB AL]

Makes sense, I feed my fish alot like 8 to 12 cubes of Hikari, dont even test for nitrates or phosphates and all corals are doing great.

 

[Sallstrom]

Could you please elaborate on your tools? Thank you

Sure!
At first, around ten years ago, it help me turn around a reef tank with pale corals and Cyanobacteria. The tank was low in nutrients, just like many other tanks at the time with Zeovit method and all that. We first tried dosing KNO3, which help against both problems the first period. Then the corals started to look pale again, so we started to add KH2PO4 as well. The colours came back and ever since we've used these additives in similar situations.

At the moment we're starting up 10 propagation tanks in two systems, and we're dosing both phosphate and nitrate to keep the nutrients from getting too low and cause problems like Cyanobacteria, Dinoflagellates and pale corals.

We've also used these additives together with a carbon source to lower either nitrate or phosphate. Adding KNO3 and a carbon source to lower phosphate, or KH2PO4 and a carbon source to lower nitrate.

 

[HB AL]

Might have posted at the same time if not what exactly do you mean by tools ?

 

[User1]

Not sure if this was said but what numbers are you maintaining of each?

Just trying to put it into context of what zero, low, medium, or high is.

Edit: I see I had already asked this question and it was answered. I'm suck a dork... Please ignore this.

 

[DivingTheWorld]

I am also of the opinion that dosing either is unnecessary. I've dosed both, but found that it can be tricky maintaining the proper levels unless you are dosing both at the same time. I also agree that you need a decent amount of Nitrate and Phosphate for acros. I keep mine around 5/0.05. I think the question is, how do you do that without dosing? If you're using some type of reduction device (Chaeto, ATS, Bio Pellets, GFO, etc.) it's easy, you just reduce and eventually eliminate if needed those devices.

So what if you don't have any type of reduction and your "nutrients" are still too low or undetectable? I see numerous people advise, "Feed More". IMO this is a little too vague. For instance, if you have one fish in your 100g tank and you dump a bunch more food in, I don't think it's going to help your corals. Rather than "Feed More", I subscribe to "Add More Fish...and Feed Them". IMO there is a balance of the right amount of fish for each tank and when you reach that balance, your Nitrates and Phosphates will maintain themselves. You just slowly add fish and feed those fish until you hit the level you want.

 

[Sallstrom]

Sorry if I confused you with the term "tools". I meant ways to control and manipulate an aquarium.
So no real tools, more like options to manipulate

Low for me are when our tests show under 0,5 ppm for nitrate(Salifert) and zero phosphate (Hanna LR).

IMO, and with the tanks I work with, it's easier to use these additives then feed more or/and add more fish. Sure in the long term adding fish is a good solution, but short term I think adding nutrients are very handy.

 

[GoatmealJones]

I am also of the opinion that dosing either is unnecessary. I've dosed both, but found that it can be tricky maintaining the proper levels unless you are dosing both at the same time. I also agree that you need a decent amount of Nitrate and Phosphate for acros. I keep mine around 5/0.05. I think the question is, how do you do that without dosing? If you're using some type of reduction device (Chaeto, ATS, Bio Pellets, GFO, etc.) it's easy, you just reduce and eventually eliminate if needed those devices.

So what if you don't have any type of reduction and your "nutrients" are still too low or undetectable? I see numerous people advise, "Feed More". IMO this is a little too vague. For instance, if you have one fish in your 100g tank and you dump a bunch more food in, I don't think it's going to help your corals. Rather than "Feed More", I subscribe to "Add More Fish...and Feed Them". IMO there is a balance of the right amount of fish for each tank and when you reach that balance, your Nitrates and Phosphates will maintain themselves. You just slowly add fish and feed those fish until you hit the level you want.

As somebody going through a long fallow period, I am currently receiving zero nutrient flow from fish or decomposed food. I have, however, been liberally adding reef roids to my tank every day to almost full saturation, at first without realizing what I was doing. What I found is that after a brief period of algal blooms, the generous amounts of phyto has caused my pod population to explode from zero to all over my tanks walls. I am seeing sponges ressurecting themselves from their former aquacultured state and chaeto growth gone mad. As time continues, I can add as much reef roids as anyone could want without any algae bloom. The microorganisms have been able to keep up and maintain overall equilibrium. No joke, my nitrates were near 100 ppm, and my LPS growth exploded. SPS didnt react quiteb as well, but did not experience any negative reaction necessarily. Biodiversity has overcome the tank as i see small creatures everywhere. I think that once your ecosystem adapts to increased nutrients by filling the environment with consumers of phytoplankton, then high levels of nutrients can be very beneficial to growth and biodiversity. I am not an expert in marine ecology, but my hypothesis is that nutrients are needed only to sustain the "external" (i.e not the corals themselves) organisms that are neccesary to indirectly facilitate coral growth due to a given equilibrium.

 

[jda]

^ Are you sure that it was the N and P that you were adding and not the organic carbon? It is true that single cell organisms mostly use any amino acids that are added and it is unlikely (no real evidence) that coral can catch or use reef roids, so you might be right about the other micro fauna using the stuff that you were adding. These type of fauna are very beneficial.

I would caution being near 100 ppm of nitrate for long - short term vs long term is quite different. You can interrupt life cycles of inverts or just flat out kill them if you leave it there for long. You can find some tanks with long term nitrate levels that high, but dig in very closely and see if you want to be like them... they lack a lot of the biodiversity that you are talking about.

So what if you don't have any type of reduction and your "nutrients" are still too low or undetectable? I see numerous people advise, "Feed More". IMO this is a little too vague. For instance, if you have one fish in your 100g tank and you dump a bunch more food in, I don't think it's going to help your corals. Rather than "Feed More", I subscribe to "Add More Fish...and Feed Them". IMO there is a balance of the right amount of fish for each tank and when you reach that balance, your Nitrates and Phosphates will maintain themselves. You just slowly add fish and feed those fish until you hit the level you want.

IMO, if you are using natural methods and not chemicals or media, then you cannot get too low. The bacteria will always leave a trace of N to keep the equilibrium moving forward and their populations will adjust for this. P can bind to sand and rock to an equilibrium with the water where there will also always be some - fuges and algae and stuff will also leave a trace. You might be a NSW type of levels, but these are fine.

Lowering artificially to a very low level can cause quite some issues. I would stay at 1 or above ppb on Hannah Ultra Low and just judge nitrate on if you have any film algae on the glass. If you have these and the algae is not starving, then the coral are not either. Most people just want to blame N and P for other things like not changing water, substandard lighting, bad husbandry, new tanks, etc.

 

[SeaDweller]

I’m in the camp of low levels (barely detectable NO3 and below 0.10 po4) and everything looks fine. I am running multiple methods of export though: sulfur reactor (on the fence of keeping it), chaeto, and gfo. Only because I feed so many fish. If my tank can get to the point of not needing the reactor and the gfo by means of natural uptake, great! But I don’t strive to have “higher” nutrients. I gauge my tank based on the inhabitants. Just my experience.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I’m in the camp of low levels (barely detectable NO3 and below 0.10 po4) and everything looks fine. I am running multiple methods of export though: sulfur reactor (on the fence of keeping it), chaeto, and gfo. Only because I feed so many fish. If my tank can get to the point of not needing the reactor and the gfo by means of natural uptake, great! But I don’t strive to have “higher” nutrients. I gauge my tank based on the inhabitants. Just my experience.

@TitanCi are you’re sps growing, good PE, thick healthy tissue, color etc. I only ask because I don’t think I’ve seen any close ups of your Sps.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

@TitanCi are you’re sps growing, good PE, thick healthy tissue, color etc. I only ask because I don’t think I’ve seen any close ups of your Sps.

I just zoomed in on one of your pics and everything looks great from what I can tell.

 

[shred5]

I have not been a fan of either for a while, but it was more of a hunch than totally science based. I have never had any issues with low, but detectable building blocks. However, after some time, reading and some research, I am now convinced with some science that both are a bad idea.

I just want to type this once and link to it in the future, so this is why I am starting the thread. My apologies to those who do not care.

Nitrate dosing:
Most corals prefer ammonia and ammonium to get their nitrogen. Single cell algae can do this too. Nitrate can be used, but it takes more energy and is not the preferred method. If ammonia is still in good supply, then adding extra nitrate will not do anything from what I can tell since the coral can meet their need with nh3 and nh4.

Phosphate dosing:
Dosing phosphate will mostly just get bound to the aragonite and not really get to the corals. Of course, if you add enough, then there can be some excess in the water. I fear that people will one day have to fight phosphate issues from when their rock was binding up phosphates at an elevated level.

I am not saying that people need to keep both very low. I not saying that people need to chase numbers. I am just saying that dosing is probably not a good way to help your coral if you feel they need elevated levels of building blocks... the age old adage to "just feed more" might be the way to go. Heck, ammonia dosing might be even better than dosing nitrate, but we can table this for another day.

/tldr

That is why I feel with light colored corals feeding is the better way VS dosing these elements.
Corals can get all their nitrogen, phosphate, carbon needs from food. This includes amino acids.

This issue has only became a problem with lower nutrients even though lots of low nutrient systems do not have the same issue.

I believe that is because with these low nutrient systems they feed the corals through different supplements, amino acids, foods and bacteria.

We are starving our corals... Feed.

I have never felt that a animal that has a mouth and tentacles and a way of eating is better not eating anything. Living of Carbohydrates/sugars from zooxanthellae can not be healthy. How would a person feel if that was all they lived on.

Also better coloration comes from feeding by reducing the need for as much zooxanthellae which are brown.

We got so concerned about algae and nutrients we took it way to far.