My Collected Thoughts on N and P Dosing

watchguy123

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Export/import of nutrients has so many confusers.

I don’t know how to judge “appropriate” feeding except through the following guidelines: all visible food consumed within two minutes and reasonably fat fish. That seems to be a pretty loose definition. I also don’t really have a great handle on light, medium or heavy bioload (fish). There are no obvious guidelines for how many or how large fish should be per gallon. But many people use the term heavy or light bioload, nonetheless. I’ve certainly used those descriptors and visited reefing friends and thought other tanks have looked over or understocked. So it seems we all use our individual rule of thumb for number of fish , size of fish and appropriate feedings. But no other objective measurement except measuring nitrates and phosphates which really doesn’t quite answer whether we have enough fish or feed appropriately.

Then we each have different export schemes. I think universally most of us would like heavy import (so lots of building blocks/food for our coral) coordinated with heavy export so we don’t pollute the tank. And it seems these export schemes can be pretty effective in combination (macroalgae, skimming, siporax, sand, rock, water changes, bio balls, carbon dosing, etc—personally i utilize the first six listed). Plus it seems as tanks get established for longer periods of times, that they become biologically more efficient at export.

Our experience typically comes from our very personal experiences within our universe, our home tank. And we can’t forget that each tank is set up and run somewhat uniquely. Some of the experiences being shared revolve around very specific schemes. I’m not suggesting that there are not universal truths to reef keeping because I’m sure there are. In my universe, with lots of pretty fat fish, my nitrates will go down to .02 ppm or less without KNO3 daily supplements.

I aim for around 5 ppm nitrates but have some latitude and so yes my nitrates occasionally creep up to 10 ppm or more and down to near zero but generally not abruptly. I travel a lot so feedings vary greatly while I’m away—someone feeds and adds the KNO3 while I’m away . Typically upon my return, simply resuming normal feedings and normal nitrate supplementation, the tank equilibrates back to my ideal numbers.

I’ve been dosing nitrate for a good while now and haven't used gfo in what seems like forever (years). Between keeping my fish well fed and dosing nitrate, phosphates get pushed down in my system. I don’t track phosphates frequently though anymore. I track alkalinity and nitrate levels weekly or even more frequently. Now I need to track my phosphates more frequently for perhaps a more knowledgeable disclosure and perhaps routine. I’ve been confident that my feedings have been so heavy (or maybe I should say adequate) that I can’t imagine my phosphates bottoming out with all the food I add. But unless I test weekly, I don’t really know. I just hate the Hanna ULR phosphorus tester—it’s such a pain. I’ve been relying on ICP testing but that is not very frequent.

if you think that you have good growth at 10ppm of N and .10 ppm of P, then you would be astonished about what would happen if you lower it. This is one thing that you don't know unless you know.

You have me intrigued with this. Although I have some significant concern about getting nutrients too low because it makes me feel like the tank is on the very edge of a delicate balance. I have presumed rightly or wrongly that with a bit more nitrate and phosphate that I’m less likely to tip the balance against me. But you are correct, “you don’t know unless you know”
 

Punchanello

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Just a few anecdotal observations to add to this conversation -

My tank has been fallow for about 5 of the last 8 months. I had an outbreak of ich and my first fallow period failed. During this period my SPS have had very slow growth (although they are growing) and colours have paled. Many have gone well beyond pastel. All have some polyp extension but they have not been happy. During this period the only constant was that I 'fed' the heck out of the tank. My own mix of reef roids, aminos and heavily blended algae flakes, shrimp, fish and molluscs. Each time I did the SPS sent out feeders and I felt they might be capturing particulate foods and that the waste would break down to N and P which could be absorbed by the coral.

The tank has run 4 different ways during this period -

1. At first I was keen to reduce as much algae growth as I could (no tangs to eat it) while feeding the corals. So I fed heavily and and ran my skimmer and chaeto refugium 24hrs a day. My corals paled and I was unable to get detectable N and P.

2. I fed heavily but cut my chaeto refugium photo period in half and did the same with the skimmer. I saw no real increase in algae growth but still couldn't register N and P and the corals continued to pale.

3. My fallow period ended and I reintroduced 2 clownfish and left my chaeto and skimmer running at 12 hrs a day. 2 clowns in a 130 gallon isn't much bioload but I was surprised by the noticeably better polyp extension. Corals still pale though despite heavy feeding.

4. Two clowns, skimmer and fuge light off altogether. I started this 1 week ago and my corals are already starting to show signs of colouring up again.

I can't really draw any concrete consulsions from this but it does have me leaning towards a few beliefs.

The first is that I'm unsure about the direct benefits of N and P on SPS health or feeding particulate matter. Despite heavy feeding all through the whole period I was getting undetectable levels of both yet my Chaeto was exploding with growth. It was being uptaken by the chaeto and I assume uptaken by the corals also but with little improvement in growth or colouration. It was only after I added both the clowns that I saw any improvement. Immediately with the clowns then accelerated after taking filtration off line. Maybe this correlates with @jda s statement about ammonia being more readily uptaken by corals. What is a fish but an ammonia source? I'm also fairly convinced that food processed by the fish is a more useful source of coral nutrient than any non digested sources like aminos and products like reef roids.

I add my Blue and Yellow tangs back in to the system again this weekend and fully expect to see further improvements.
 

Turtlesteve

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What are you using to remove P? And are you using a Hanna ULR to test it? In my experience unless the tank is new and finding equilibrium P won't hit actual zero unless you are using something like GFO or lanthanum Chloride, or carbon dosing.

Just curious.

Nothing - I don't use lanthanum or GFO, no protein skimmer, no refugium. Water changes are 30% every 3 months. I run carbon (passively) and a UV sterilizer. I dose kalkwasser regularly and was playing around with Red Sea colors for trace elements - that's it. I am using the Hanna ULR checker for P and the red sea kit for NO3. I have only seen the ULR checker test exactly 0 PPB once (with dinoflagellates), but I seem to get to low single digits (PPB) if I don't dose. It's low enough that corals start to suffer.

I hypothesize that being skimmerless is part of it. Maybe the skimmate I am not removing is acting like carbon dosing. The last time I had this tank set up, many years ago, it was with a skimmer and deep sand bed and I never saw this happen.

Steve
 

reef_ranch

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So what’ll you do when your PO4 drops back down to say 0.10 or slightly below, will you drop your alk back down into the sub 8.0 range? Or will you maintain 8.5 dkh and keep the PO4 at 0.10 or below? IF (emphasized “if”) your plan is to drop PO4 to 0.10 or below, why not just keep alk at Sub 8.0 and just bring PO4 down? Just want to pick your brain, that’s all [emoji106]
I'll drop the alk down. I'm a firm believer in high nutrients high alk, low nutrients low alk. And the plan is to drop PO4 to .05 or slightly lower and follow it by dropping the alk to 7.5-7.8. I'm hoping to get the best colors there.
 
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jda

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The growth that you can get with NSW parameters is where you always have white tips where the coral is constantly growing and the zoox lags behind. You can take a 1" frag and have a cantaloupe/watermelon in three years - this is not always good and fragging can keep this down. A 180g tank, for example with 12-20 1" frags in it will be wall-to-wall in three years. The coralline will grow like so fast that if you do not scrape it often, it will get like this on the sides and back and you can take out sheets of it.


If anybody ever does stop dosing no3, do it slow so that the bacterial populations (what you are mostly feeding) can die back slowly.

In all of my experience, 90% of "best/bettor" color is from lights if you have competent parameters... which you do. You can get your parameters spot-on in every aspect and not do as much. Growth is a bit different where parameters do matter more.
 

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I'll drop the alk down. I'm a firm believer in high nutrients high alk, low nutrients low alk. And the plan is to drop PO4 to .05 or slightly lower and follow it by dropping the alk to 7.5-7.8. I'm hoping to get the best colors there.

So were you just trying to experiment with higher alk then? Just asking cuz if you were bringing down PO4 anyway, why drive alk up, only to bring it down? Again, I like to pick the brains of people who have success in whatever it may be. Don’t take it the wrong way!
 

Charlie’s Frags

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The growth that you can get with NSW parameters is where you always have white tips where the coral is constantly growing and the zoox lags behind. You can take a 1" frag and have a cantaloupe/watermelon in three years - this is not always good and fragging can keep this down. A 180g tank, for example with 12-20 1" frags in it will be wall-to-wall in three years. The coralline will grow like so fast that if you do not scrape it often, it will get like this on the sides and back and you can take out sheets of it.


If anybody ever does stop dosing no3, do it slow so that the bacterial populations (what you are mostly feeding) can die back slowly.

In all of my experience, 90% of "best/bettor" color is from lights if you have competent parameters... which you do. You can get your parameters spot-on in every aspect and not do as much. Growth is a bit different where parameters do matter more.
Can you give us some more details on your tank @jda? Bio load? What and how much do you feed?
 

reef_ranch

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I didn’t have burnt tips when my alk was above 8 and my po4 was sub 0.03. I firmly believe burnt tips happen from artificially driving po4 down. I don’t believe it’s the number but methodology behind that number. I had burnt tips when my po4 was high and my alk was low but I was using gfo and bio pellets.
Perhaps that's a distinction without a difference. Why the PO4 is low may not matter. That is it low and the alk is high (9 or above is what I consider high) is what caused the burnt tips. I've had burnt tips from high alk with no carbon dosing, GFO or LC.
 

Charlie’s Frags

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Perhaps that's a distinction without a difference. Why the PO4 is low may not matter. That is it low and the alk is high (9 or above is what I consider high) is what caused the burnt tips. I've had burnt tips from high alk with no carbon dosing, GFO or LC.
I’ve never had my alk above 9, but I had 8.5 with 0 ppb P, 0-.2 no3 and zero burnt tips. That was with no skimmer, gfo, carbon dosing etc.
 

reef_ranch

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So were you just trying to experiment with higher alk then? Just asking cuz if you were bringing down PO4 anyway, why drive alk up, only to bring it down? Again, I like to pick the brains of people who have success in whatever it may be. Don’t take it the wrong way!
No worries about questioning me. I just can't promise I'll always have a good answer!
I wouldn't say it was an experiment, more of a safety precaution. I've never had high PO4 before in this system and the nitrate was still at a reasonable 5 mg/l, I figured something biological had gotten out of whack and decided to raise the alk because of all the successful SPS tanks I've seen that keep higher nutrients with higher alk. I've not seen many tanks with high nutrients and low alk and didn't want to risk my corals to trying something new (to me).
I then had to decide how to lower the PO4, dose nitrates or go to GFO. I went with the GFO and am slowly (over at least a month) dropping the PO4 while keeping the NO3 where it is. Now that the PO4 is below .1, I've dropped the alk to 8.2-8.3.
 

Charlie’s Frags

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I've only had burnt tips when the alk shot above 9 over a fairly short period of time.
Gotcha
My point was I did have burnt tips with 7.5 alk, 10 no3 and 0.10 po4 when I was using gfo and carbon dosing. I’ve had zero burnt tips, no matter what my alk/nutrients are, since I vowed to never use them again.
 
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jda

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Can you give us some more details on your tank @jda? Bio load? What and how much do you feed?

2-3 inches of sand, heavy skimming with big sump and 3x skimmers, water changes (variable depending on schedule), metal halides, lots of real live rock. I have a fuge where I grow chaeto, flame, bubble and hair algae or whatever drops by. N is undetectable on hobby test kit. P is 1-4 PPB on Hannah ultra low. CaRX and no other supplements. No coral "food." I have about a dozen fish and an Ehiem feeder feeds them NLS pellets 4x per day. I might feed frozen a few times a week.
 

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Bouncingsoul39

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It seems like the main circumstance that requires N or P dosing is when you're running a ULNS with either carbon dosing, Bio-pellets, or a large high energy (light) refugium. With carbon dosing, you can totally bottom out the nutrients which will result in lightening or even bleaching. If you dial back the carbon dosing or reduce the amount of pellets in the reactor you can get to a point of balance with what is being added to what is being exported. I agree that extra feeding of the fish and corals can reduce the deficit to the point that N or P dosing isn't needed.
 

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2-3 inches of sand, heavy skimming with big sump and 3x skimmers, water changes (variable depending on schedule), metal halides, lots of real live rock. I have a fuge where I grow chaeto, flame, bubble and hair algae or whatever drops by. N is undetectable on hobby test kit. P is 1-4 PPB on Hannah ultra low. CaRX and no other supplements. No coral "food." I have about a dozen fish and an Ehiem feeder feeds them NLS pellets 4x per day. I might feed frozen a few times a week.

Do you maintain your sandbed or leave it be? Or have critters to stir it up?
 

Pete_the_Puma

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Again, I am not saying that anybody has to have low numbers, or even debating the merit of doing so, only that dosing nitrate probably did not get to the corals since they were using ammonia/ammonium... and that you tank could still probably be where it is at now without dosing phosphate since it most likely just got bound by the aragonite. All that ended up happening was higher N number on a test kit and more P in the rocks.

I think it's a little more complicated than that.

Ammonia to nitrite to nitrate conversions are performed by enzymes in various organism, mostly what we call "beneficial bacteria". Enzymatic kinetics dictate that the reaction can in theory go BOTH ways although it is heavily favored in the Substrate (Ammonia)----> Product (Nitrate in the end) direction.

By increasing the concentration of the product we are slowing the enzymatic reaction and INCREASING (slightly) Substrate concentration.

So yes, dosing Nitrate does very slightly increase available Ammonia in my opinion. (Few years of Biochemistry 20 years ago lol).
 

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