My tank is whack with low phosphate....

[bishoptf]

I have a 2.5 year old nano and it has had struggles with Dino's and all kinds of fun stuff, but for the most part things are on the way up but I still struggle with low PO4. I can and do dose but most folks struggle with PO4 increasing and I have just the opposite, if I do not dose then it will always go to zero, not over night but over a period of time. When dealing with Dino I doesed to keep nutrients elevated and it took awhile to get PO4 to register after 24 hours but that has been over a year ago and I was able to get things going in the right direction but i still struggle with low phosphate for some reason. Here are some parameters;

30g nano w/ 20g long sump, 35-40g water volume, eshopps skimmer, run some filter floss and purigen
alk-7.8-8.3
Nitrate-9
phosphate -Before dosing hanna ulr said 0, dosed 3ppm
ca-470
mg-1350
salinity-1.025-1.026

Mainly feed lrs frenzy most days with some tdo chroma boost, when I do feed more pellets I do have an easier time keeping PO4 elevated. Just not sure what is removing the po4 over time, surely after 2.5 years my rock is no longer soaking it up. I have some halmedia macro's, a little gha but noithing that would take po4 down like I see. I dosed .03 tonight, will see what it is tomorrow, just thought I would see if anyone had any idea what might be using up the po4 that I see, thanks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Feed coral reef roids which keep phos up
Something is absorbing it and likely is a small tank with a lot of Coral that is consuming it faster than can be generated

 

[taricha]

Yeah, I'd also do a just use a food that has decent amount of PO4 and let it slowly get in your target range over time.
(flake that has fish meal or bone meal as leading ingredients will have higher PO4 - also the label will usually give you PO4 values.)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If nitrate starts to get too high to allow more feeding to solve the issue, dosing food grade sodium phosphate from a place like Amazon is a good choice.

 

[bishoptf]

Yeah, I'd also do a just use a food that has decent amount of PO4 and let it slowly get in your target range over time.
(flake that has fish meal or bone meal as leading ingredients will have higher PO4 - also the label will usually give you PO4 values.)

Yeah not sure, I do have some TDO chroma boost and when I feed more of that I see an increase, just odd that if I am not consistent the po4 always goes down with no gfo etc...I sometimes think that maybe my skimmer is pulling it out but really haven't found many indications of skimmers lowering phosphate. I'm just wondering where the po4 is going since most tanks have issues with it being high, even when I have some in the tank over time it will go back to 0.

I think what I need to do is set a baseline, dose to a certain percentage and see how long it takes to bring it down, maybe that will help me understand what is causing it or maybe if it takes several days then maybe its just the 2 big leathers that I have soaking it up or maybe still my rock, but 2.5 years I think the rock should have been at a saturation point.

 

[bishoptf]

If nitrate starts to get too high to allow more feeding to solve the issue, dosing food grade sodium phosphate from a place like Amazon is a good choice.

Yup I have used your posts in the past I have trisodium phosphate and nitrate mixtures that I can dose with, with all my dino fun I have them at the ready and when I find it low I apply accordingly. I tested last night after wc and nitrate was 9 and phosphate was 0, so I dosed phosphate to get it back up but thats whats been bugging me, why is my phosphate still trending down when supposedly they are more stubborn to remove.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

why is my phosphate still trending down when supposedly they are more stubborn to remove.

Phosphate is harder to add when low and harder to remove when high, compared to nitrate, due to reversible binding to rock and sand.

 

[bishoptf]

Phosphate is harder to add when low and harder to remove when high, compared to nitrate, due to reversible binding to rock and sand.

Gotcha, I should have put in my original posting, it's a bare bottom tank no sand. Well I have a tiny jar of it in my sump but main tank has no sand in it, so really only rock to bind with.

 

[taricha]

In a consistently low PO4 system, many organisms are hungry for it and can store lots of it - some can store enough for multiple generations. So there are many mouths for PO4 - even without much aragonite.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In a consistently low PO4 system, many organisms are hungry for it and can store lots of it - some can store enough for multiple generations. So there are many mouths for PO4 - even without much aragonite.

Like doomsday prepping? lol

 

[taricha]

Like doomsday prepping? lol

It feels more intended to frustrate the hobbyist . But yeah, basically.


"When a species of Amphidinium bloomed in a mariculture sediment pond fed by effluent water from semi-intensive fishponds, it was isolated and its physiological ecology was investigated to find its tolerances and optima for population growth (temperature, salinity, pH, nitrate/ammonia, phosphorus, and vitamin B12). In a preliminary test, an ether-soluble extract was toxic to mice. The Amphidinium sp. was eurytrophic, with a great facility for luxury consumption and the ability to store nitrate and phosphate for several generations."

Physiological ecology and possible control strategy of a toxic marine dinoflagellate, Amphidinium sp., from the benthos of a mariculture pond

(This is the paper that documented using Si additions to outgrow toxic dinos with edible diatoms and keep the shrimp alive in the shrimp farm until the dino bloom faded.)

 

[bishoptf]

It feels more intended to frustrate the hobbyist . But yeah, basically.


"When a species of Amphidinium bloomed in a mariculture sediment pond fed by effluent water from semi-intensive fishponds, it was isolated and its physiological ecology was investigated to find its tolerances and optima for population growth (temperature, salinity, pH, nitrate/ammonia, phosphorus, and vitamin B12). In a preliminary test, an ether-soluble extract was toxic to mice. The Amphidinium sp. was eurytrophic, with a great facility for luxury consumption and the ability to store nitrate and phosphate for several generations."

Physiological ecology and possible control strategy of a toxic marine dinoflagellate, Amphidinium sp., from the benthos of a mariculture pond

(This is the paper that documented using Si additions to outgrow toxic dinos with edible diatoms and keep the shrimp alive in the shrimp farm until the dino bloom faded.)

shudder...still PTSD from my dino, had both amphid and ostreo...still have a UV running and I know I should turn it off but still afraid to do so, lol.

Dino's are one of those things I wish we could better figure out, just PIA buggers for sure...

 

[bishoptf]

I'm still chasing phosphate in my tank, like I am running GFO and I'm not, I am running some purigen in my return section in my fuge, floss and skimmer but not sure what eats up the phosphate after 2.5 years of running. I used James planted tank and according to the calculator I am should be adding .03ppm with each dose, I also fed some reef roids/benereef along with food yesterday evening. Took a measurement and came back 9ppb and I dosed another 3ppm (supposed to be) po4 and just tested today and says its 0, not even 24hours later. At this point still not sure where the phosphate is going, anyone have any ideas, BTW this is a 29G BB tank with 20g long sump, niotrate is around 9-10ppm

I can keep dosing but hard to believe my rocks are still socking it up, just makes no sense after 2.5 years.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm still chasing phosphate in my tank, like I am running GFO and I'm not, I am running some purigen in my return section in my fuge, floss and skimmer but not sure what eats up the phosphate after 2.5 years of running. I used James planted tank and according to the calculator I am should be adding .03ppm with each dose, I also fed some reef roids/benereef along with food yesterday evening. Took a measurement and came back 9ppb and I dosed another 3ppm (supposed to be) po4 and just tested today and says its 0, not even 24hours later. At this point still not sure where the phosphate is going, anyone have any ideas, BTW this is a 29G BB tank with 20g long sump, niotrate is around 9-10ppm

I can keep dosing but hard to believe my rocks are still socking it up, just makes no sense after 2.5 years.

Exposed calcium carbonate rock and sand will absorb and/or release phosphate.

 

[bishoptf]

Exposed calcium carbonate rock and sand will absorb and/or release phosphate.

Yeah understood, just hard to believe they are still soaking it up, makes me think that something else is going on but no idea what that may be. Let me ask this, if I dose 3ppm PO4 how soon after I dose it could I take a measurement, 30min, an hour? I have really high turnover in my tank, over 10x turnover easily so it should mix in quickly but I am just trying to figure out how fast it's using it up.

Do you think purigen would be stripping po4 out at a high rate, I am thinking of pulling it just to see if it changes things but not really read others having that issue since its not GFO or phosguard.

One more tidbit is I am running higher PH recently, does PH play in any part with binding PO4 rates? Just grasping at straws and that is something a little different.

 

[bishoptf]

I have this question I know nitrate and phosphate are somewhat intertwined but if I have higher nitrate will it make it harder to balance out the phosphate? Maybe this is a dumb question but say I have 20ppm NO3 and low PO4, will lowering nitrate reduce the amount that one needs to dose in order to reach PO4 saturation. Currently my N03 is running about 10ppm but I could reduce it with some water changes and get it lower, would that help in keeping PO4 elevated?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah understood, just hard to believe they are still soaking it up, makes me think that something else is going on but no idea what that may be. Let me ask this, if I dose 3ppm PO4 how soon after I dose it could I take a measurement, 30min, an hour? I have really high turnover in my tank, over 10x turnover easily so it should mix in quickly but I am just trying to figure out how fast it's using it up.

Do you think purigen would be stripping po4 out at a high rate, I am thinking of pulling it just to see if it changes things but not really read others having that issue since its not GFO or phosguard.

One more tidbit is I am running higher PH recently, does PH play in any part with binding PO4 rates? Just grasping at straws and that is something a little different.

The time to testability is just how long it takes to disperse, like how long food coloring would take to disperse in your system. In a sumpless system that might be a few minutes max. With sumos and refugia it might be an hour or more.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have this question I know nitrate and phosphate are somewhat intertwined but if I have higher nitrate will it make it harder to balance out the phosphate? Maybe this is a dumb question but say I have 20ppm NO3 and low PO4, will lowering nitrate reduce the amount that one needs to dose in order to reach PO4 saturation. Currently my N03 is running about 10ppm but I could reduce it with some water changes and get it lower, would that help in keeping PO4 elevated?

No, these two ions do not interact with each other. Either one, if low enough, might stop the other from being taken up by halting the growth of an organism using them both, but high levels do not hinder one another.

 

[bishoptf]

No, these two ions do not interact with each other. Either one, if low enough, might stop the other from being taken up by halting the growth of an organism using them both, but high levels do not hinder one another.

Thanks for the quick reply, appreciate it.

 

[bishoptf]

Day 5 and still dosing .06 to .09 PO4 daily, taking one measuerment in the afternoon and keeps coming back .03ppm so on it goes...going to keep dosing until I see the number in the afternoon higher then I will reduce the amount until hopefully I can get something stable....