Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).

[Edgecrusher28]

@Edgecrusher28
Wanted to ask you this before but kinda forgot.
Are you using GAC? Or any other method or removing terpenes and organics?
Also have you made your coral frag plates yourself or did you buy them?

I run two 11oz Chemi-Pure Elite bags of carbon that are switched out every 8 weeks. I also run a Regal 150INT skimmer that runs 18hr a day, along with an ICE CAP large algae turf scrubber. The frag tiles are ceramic and I purchased them from Ocean Wonders. Most of them are dark cured for months before ever being used.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

@Edgecrusher28
Wanted to ask you this before but kinda forgot.
Are you using GAC? Or any other method or removing terpenes and organics?
Also have you made your coral frag plates yourself or did you buy them?

On a side note, I ordered a carbon reactor today which will be here tomorrow and I will get that setup and running asap. I guess I really do not have any confidence in media bag carbon efficacy at this point, probably way too much channeling through those bags to really remove any potential toxins. The more I think about what is happening in this tank along with the lack of success with the myriad of treatments I have done. I'm now starting to lean towards chemical warfare or coral allelopathy as the issue. More over, the true palythoa species I have in this tank are never effected by these mysterious issues, not to mention palys are credited with being the more aggressive Zoa as well as being more toxic in the sense of their palytoxin levels.

 

[Tavero]

On a side note, I ordered a carbon reactor today which will be here tomorrow and I will get that setup and running asap. I guess I really do not have any confidence in media bag carbon efficacy at this point, probably way too much channeling through those bags to really remove any potential toxins. The more I think about what is happening in this tank along with the lack of success with the myriad of treatments I have done. I'm now starting to lean towards chemical warfare or coral allelopathy as the issue. More over, the true palythoa species I have in this tank are never effected by these mysterious issues, not to mention palys are credited with being the more aggressive Zoa as well as being more toxic in the sense of their palytoxin levels.

With true palythoas do you mean palythoa grandis and palythoa mutuki aka palythoa "i will poison your family and pets"? I don't own these.
That said, the most resilliant zoanthids in my tank (besides cheap radioactives and fire and ice) are my LA Lakers and Cobalts from the Zoanthus genus. They have very small polyps and thick leather like skin. Skin thickness could be a factor to zoa melting, i think.
I don't think chemical warfare is the main reason for zoa issues, mainly because the symptoms start with single colonies, which continue to spread.
I am curious about your findings with your new reactor.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

An unenthusiastic update for you all, unfortunately everything seems to be holding its old status quo even after all of the attempted remedies. Prior to leaving for vacation, I completed a 72 hour super concentrated (500mg daily) Amoxicillin bath and those frags have been recovering in the tank for almost a week with no visible signs of improvement. Out of pure desperation, I left a few lower end Zoa frags in the super concentrated bath of Amoxicillin for 5 days straight to see if increased exposure time would make a difference and yet again there was no improvement.

NEW EQUIPMENT INSTALLED 4-20-23
-Carbon Reactor. I was already using Chemi-Pure Elite carbon in the tank and replaced the two 11oz bags every 8 weeks. However, I was pondering the idea that with a large collection of Zoa's that perhaps there was some chemical warfare taking place (Allelopathy), and passively using carbon was insufficient. However, over the last few days with this item installed there has been no improvement.

ICP TEST
Results should be back by tomorrow 4-24, although I don't expect anything to show up here.


CURRENT TREATMENT IN PROGRESS: 4-23-23
-72 hour super concentrated (250mg daily) Aqua-Ceph Cephalexin bath. This will be my final bacterial/fungal/parasitic treatment, given at this point I have used a huge variety of potent medication with no real improvement.

 

[helwrj28]

Any updates? I think I'm going through the same thing with zoa decline and appreciate any insight!

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Any updates? I think I'm going through the same thing with zoa decline and appreciate any insight!

Nothing good to report as of now. The Aqua-Cephalexin treatment is done and the frags are back in the tank but look the same.

PH, ORP CONTROLLER/MONITOR AND C02 SCRUBBER INSTALLED.
I figured these two parameters are the only ones that were not verified via ICP testing so I installed equipment to monitor them but everything was normal. My tanks are in my basement and I had a thought that maybe my salifert kit was giving me bad PH readings and perhaps I actually had low/acidic PH due to C02. However, the ph was showing 8.23 with a freshly calibrated Milwaukee Probe. I ran the C02 scrubber For about two hours and the PH jumped up to 8.51, so I pulled it off the skimmer.

I am monitoring my ORP levels, because at first it showed a very concerning 96Mv reading when first installed but after being in the tank overnight it’s back to 280Mv. I will give it a few days to settle in and go from there. I may install an Ozone generator just to see if it helps because I just don’t know what else to even try at this point.

 

[goatcorals]

Nothing good to report as of now. The Aqua-Cephalexin treatment is done and the frags are back in the tank but look the same.

PH, ORP CONTROLLER/MONITOR AND C02 SCRUBBER INSTALLED.
I figured these two parameters are the only ones that were not verified via ICP testing so I installed equipment to monitor them but everything was normal. My tanks are in my basement and I had a thought that maybe my salifert kit was giving me bad PH readings and perhaps I actually had low/acidic PH due to C02. However, the ph was showing 8.23 with a freshly calibrated Milwaukee Probe. I ran the C02 scrubber For about two hours and the PH jumped up to 8.51, so I pulled it off the skimmer.

I am monitoring my ORP levels, because at first it showed a very concerning 96Mv reading when first installed but after being in the tank overnight it’s back to 280Mv. I will give it a few days to settle in and go from there. I may install an Ozone generator just to see if it helps because I just don’t know what else to even try at this point.

So frustrating... You're certainly knocking out most of what I can think of... and about 20 solutions I haven't tried.

Some longshot ideas...

Foxface, Zebrasoma and other tangs can eat zoas. Foxface highest probability, but I once I had a Blue tang nipping. I'm not sure if it's always that they are eating them, but pecking all over them all the time looking for algae might do it?

Zoa eating Nudis tend to make the smaller head zoas close up first... then the "Paly's" start later... even if they don't have Nudis, they tend to close up over time-- they seem to sense there are nudi's near by. There are a million types of copepods, other little creatures that tick stuff off. I'd think you would have seen something by now though... perhaps a fresh water dip or Interceptor?

I've had bad salinity calibration solution before but you would have seen that in the ICP I'd think.

Chemi-pure elite has GFO. GFO pulls out more than just P04. Could PO4 be bottoming out intermittently?

Sometimes higher or lower flow can help if you haven't tried it? Usually higher, but I've had luck with lower in some cases.

Might be worth putting them in the other tank without the fish to see if they improve? May take 4-6 weeks. 60 Par would be fine I'd think.

 

[goatcorals]

Another quick note, I run smaller zoas (rastas, hornets) around 60-80 par and my larger ones (Nirvana) 100-120.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

So frustrating... You're certainly knocking out most of what I can think of... and about 20 solutions I haven't tried.

Some longshot ideas...

Foxface, Zebrasoma and other tangs can eat zoas. Foxface highest probability, but I once I had a Blue tang nipping. I'm not sure if it's always that they are eating them, but pecking all over them all the time looking for algae might do it?

I have moved the Foxface out to a new tank a few months back with no change. I have also installed webcams to monitor fish behavior when I am not in front of the tank so see If I could catch them nibbling on the Zoa's but never really seen anything that was concerning.

Zoa eating Nudis tend to make the smaller head zoas close up first... then the "Paly's" start later... even if they don't have Nudis, they tend to close up over time-- they seem to sense there are nudi's near by. There are a million types of copepods, other little creatures that tick stuff off. I'd think you would have seen something by now though... perhaps a fresh water dip or Interceptor?

I have looked at the tank many times with lights out during the night and in the morning desperately hoping to find some kind of pest, but again I have not found anything of concern. However, this is not to say that I could not miss something, but after so many attempts one would think I could find something. I like the idea of a freshwater dip, what the heck do I have to lose.

I've had bad salinity calibration solution before but you would have seen that in the ICP I'd think.

Yeah, I purchased a new refractometer and calibration solution just to triple check, and as you mentioned before. The ICP test always showed salinity around 34/35ppt. I even raised and lowered salinity over the course of a few months looking for improvements.

Chemi-pure elite has GFO. GFO pulls out more than just P04. Could PO4 be bottoming out intermittently?

Perhaps, but I don't have a way to real time monitor PO4 currently so I have to assume my weekly Hanna testing along with ICP test that the phosphate is there.

Sometimes higher or lower flow can help if you haven't tried it? Usually higher, but I've had luck with lower in some cases.

Might be worth putting them in the other tank without the fish to see if they improve? May take 4-6 weeks. 60 Par would be fine I'd think.

I have installed two smaller 1600 GPH pumps on the perimeter of the tank in an effort to prevent any true dead spots but I cant say I have seen any changes in the Zoos and upon visual inspection most of the coral is getting sufficient flow. As for the par goes, I have frags in a variety of PAR's from 200 to 60, and again there is no real discernable difference between these frags.

 

[Aaron75]

Just a hunch based on something I heard a local guy tell me, have you tried lowering your Alk? I recently bought some coral from him and we discussed a bunch of things as I'm relatively new. He sells sticks, softies and everything between. I asked what his hardest coral to keep is and to my surprise he said Zoa's. Obviously the run of the mill stuff he isn't worried about, but the GMK, and Strats and that sort of stuff, he struggles to not have em melt, and said if his Alk goes above 10, which it usually is, that's what really seems to trigger them. Just a thought.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Just a hunch based on something I heard a local guy tell me, have you tried lowering your Alk? I recently bought some coral from him and we discussed a bunch of things as I'm relatively new. He sells sticks, softies and everything between. I asked what his hardest coral to keep is and to my surprise he said Zoa's. Obviously the run of the mill stuff he isn't worried about, but the GMK, and Strats and that sort of stuff, he struggles to not have em melt, and said if his Alk goes above 10, which it usually is, that's what really seems to trigger them. Just a thought.

Maybe it is divine intervention that you posted this, but no joke just last night I setup my Alk doser to start lowering my Alk .1 /.15 per day. I was looking through all of my old ICP tests and the results I had on file when I actually had happy zoas my alkalinity was 8.7Dkh. Oddly enough I had more parameters out of sorts back then and even had copper in the system (Bad RODI water I assume). Either way, I am going to slowly bring it down to 8Dkh over the next few weeks. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Aaron75]

Maybe it is divine intervention that you posted this, but no joke just last night I setup my Alk doser to start lowering my Alk .1 /.15 per day. I was looking through all of my old ICP tests and the results I had on file when I actually had happy zoas my alkalinity was 8.7Dkh. Oddly enough I had more parameters out of sorts back then and even had copper in the system (Bad RODI water I assume). Either way, I am going to slowly bring it down to 8Dkh over the next few weeks. Thanks for the tip!

Well here's to hoping!

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Another update that has no update. Since the last post I put out, the Zoas continue to look sick and like usual only a few have open polyps. The melting and disappearing zoa problem has moved on, everything seems to be holding steady but just not happy. The symptoms remain relatively the same, most colonies are closed up tight and a few that are open are dull in color and even some polyps have black faces or black patches within the face of the polyp.

ICP TEST BACK 4-27
My ICP test results were back on the 27th, and as anticipated there was really nothing going on. The only two items that I have been trying to chase were removing the small detectable levels of Aluminum (21.07 µg/l) and getting my Iodine back down from 108. µg/l. Oddly enough even after more than a 300% water change the aluminum levels and Iodine would not come down.


ICP TEST BACK 5-12
I have another 100 gallon tank that I have been cycling for about 7 months now that is nearly identical equipment wise to my problem tank with only a few tangs in it currently (No coral). I sent off an ICP test for this tank and its came back with two interesting differences/similarities. Firstly, there was absolutely no aluminum in this tank, even though it has the exact same Marine Pure Bioball media that I suspected of leaching aluminum in my other tank. Secondly, the Iodine levels were again at 100.µg/l, which I believe is the natural level of Instant Ocean RC because I have never once dosed anything to this tank.

TANKS CHANGES/SOLUTIONS

-Removed all Marine Pure Bio ball media and completed a full sump vacuum/cleanout with a water change and installed fresh Cuprisorb in the sump.

-Began lowering Alkalinity from 10.8 to 8.5 over the last few weeks solely based upon history of ICP test when my Zoas were happy along with recommendations from fellow reefers. So far, no change.

-Experimented with UVB bulbs on a small section of my tank with no improvement. This was nothing more than a Hail Marry attempt.

SALT MIX CHANGE AND NEW ICP TESTS

I am slowly switching from Instant Ocean RC to Tropic Marin Syn-Biotic Sea Salt Mix with a series of 20% water changes and have just recently sent out another ICP test to see If I have been able to get the GD aluminum out of the tank.


Wish me luck, because I am ready to burn this tank to the ground. If it weren't for the super happy Goniopora in the tank I think I would have already pressed the MOAB button on this thing.

 

[FifteenYearsBand]

Super interesting read - any updates?

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Super interesting read - any updates?

Nothing good to report unfortunately, a hand full of the colonies are fine but there are still plenty that look awful. ICP test came back and I was able to get ride of the aluminum by removing the marine pure and oddly enough a few other trace elements such as manganese were now detectable that in prior tests were not despite active dosing. Whatever damage was done to these Zoas appears to not be correctable in a timely manner. The only other thing I can think of is bad lighting spectrum, but I am running a very well known light schedule that has been verified with a par meter…. ***

 

[Tavero]

Hi there,
After that episode where all my Alien explosions and Lord of the Rings have melted off a rock, i have introduced permanent H2O2 dosing and deactivated my aeration stone. My ph increased to 8.6.
Since then my zoas look even worse while the rest of my corals continue to look happy.
One question i am asking myself. Is there a possibility that the zoas are starving despite having enough nitate and phosphate available?
I am dosing nitrate and phosphate but there is no ammonia in my tank. Maybe zoas need a different form of nutrients?

I am still suspecting an bacterial infection though. Hast anyone tried Ciprofloxacin?

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Hi there,
After that episode where all my Alien explosions and Lord of the Rings have melted off a rock, i have introduced permanent H2O2 dosing and deactivated my aeration stone. My ph increased to 8.6.
Since then my zoas look even worse while the rest of my corals continue to look happy.
One question i am asking myself. Is there a possibility that the zoas are starving despite having enough nitate and phosphate available?
I am dosing nitrate and phosphate but there is no ammonia in my tank. Maybe zoas need a different form of nutrients?

I am still suspecting an bacterial infection though. Hast anyone tried Ciprofloxacin?

I mean it sure looks like they are starving, but I would not have the slightest clue what else to feed. I maintain my NO3/N04 levels appropriately, I spot feed with Reef Roids, I supplement with amino acids and also feed Phyto once or twice a week. If that was not enough to sustain what is supposed to be an easy to keep coral then I need to find a new hobby. I'm seriously thinking of trying a trial tank with tap water and salt mix and some kind of de-chlorinator because that's what I used to start and I had the best Zoa health back then and literally knew nothing; go figure.

As far as the Cipro treatment goes, I have done a fair bit of Amoxicillin baths which is theory is a similar broad spectrum antibiotic that targes gram bacteria just like Cipro without any improvement. On top of that, I have used just about every other type of bacterial, parasite, fungal treatments out there. If it were really a problem caused by infection, I feel that I would have seen some kind of measurable improvements with these treatments.

I have two new Zoa frags in the trouble tank that are doing just fine with good color and new growth and no signs of illness. I feel like whatever damage was done to these Zoa's for whatever reason perhaps can not be reversed, or at a minimum their recovery will take months and months.

 

[littlebigreef]

Hi there,
After that episode where all my Alien explosions and Lord of the Rings have melted off a rock, i have introduced permanent H2O2 dosing and deactivated my aeration stone. My ph increased to 8.6.
Since then my zoas look even worse while the rest of my corals continue to look happy.
One question i am asking myself. Is there a possibility that the zoas are starving despite having enough nitate and phosphate available?
I am dosing nitrate and phosphate but there is no ammonia in my tank. Maybe zoas need a different form of nutrients?

I am still suspecting an bacterial infection though. Hast anyone tried Ciprofloxacin?

It's an important caveat that nitrates and and phosphates are an indirect measurement of nutrition in the system and, to that end, how quickly they're being broken down and used. It's time to retire the whole 'zoas like dirty water' talking point and begin saying 'zoas (like nearly all corals) like nutrition.' It's been my experience that zoas do best when passively being feed a variety of different sized foods, good phyto blends, reefroids, freze dried cyclops or calanus, and the ultimate food, mysis/brine slurry from thawed foods. This is especially important for the long-term health of micro and other very small polyped zoas that can't ingest larger particulate.

@Tavero I'd add that alk stability is another area that doesn't get as much attention as it should. In the two years since I've separated the bulk of my zoa collection from the display, I haven't experienced nearly the same challenges I did when I had to account for large acro and lps colonies sucking alk out of the system. Admittedly, I was running an auto doser once a day with bionic, if running a calcium reactor it would have been more stable.


@Edgecrusher28 I recall you taking up experiment from the other tread we were on. I'd add that since that time I've begun using an Aqua UV 57 on my trough and I've experienced a profound drop off in the number of zoas getting sick. This has been about 7-8 weeks now but the difference in tangible. I've coupled that with aggressive initial QT but I'm certain the best way to keep things healthy is to prevent hitchhikers (even unicellular ones) from getting in in the first place.

 

[Tavero]

It's an important caveat that nitrates and and phosphates are an indirect measurement of nutrition in the system and, to that end, how quickly they're being broken down and used. It's time to retire the whole 'zoas like dirty water' talking point and begin saying 'zoas (like nearly all corals) like nutrition.' It's been my experience that zoas do best when passively being feed a variety of different sized foods, good phyto blends, reefroids, freze dried cyclops or calanus, and the ultimate food, mysis/brine slurry from thawed foods. This is especially important for the long-term health of micro and other very small polyped zoas that can't ingest larger particulate.

@Tavero I'd add that alk stability is another area that doesn't get as much attention as it should. In the two years since I've separated the bulk of my zoa collection from the display, I haven't experienced nearly the same challenges I did when I had to account for large acro and lps colonies sucking alk out of the system. Admittedly, I was running an auto doser once a day with bionic, if running a calcium reactor it would have been more stable.


@Edgecrusher28 I recall you taking up experiment from the other tread we were on. I'd add that since that time I've begun using an Aqua UV 57 on my trough and I've experienced a profound drop off in the number of zoas getting sick. This has been about 7-8 weeks now but the difference in tangible. I've coupled that with aggressive initial QT but I'm certain the best way to keep things healthy is to prevent hitchhikers (even unicellular ones) from getting in in the first place.

I am always annoyed if experts are trying to tell that zoas like dirty water. If i didn't dose phosphates and nitrates they would always measure 0. Doesn't mean i am adding dirt to my tank.
My alkalinity is very stable though, because i am dosing each hour. It's just my ph that started to increase lately.

As of right now im even thinking about buying a cheap t5 lighting to check if the spectrum is the reason. Far fetched idea and other people are having success with LEDs but maybe there is something wrong with the wavelengh and i am out of ideas.

If that was not enough to sustain what is supposed to be an easy to keep coral then I need to find a new hobby.

Yeahhh about that. I think we already figured out that zoanthids are not beginner friendly. Some are, similar to montipora being a beginner sps, but most aren't. Most reefers are just lucky.
That's ok though. If i wanted a beginner friendly pet i would get a hamster.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

It's an important caveat that nitrates and and phosphates are an indirect measurement of nutrition in the system and, to that end, how quickly they're being broken down and used. It's time to retire the whole 'zoas like dirty water' talking point and begin saying 'zoas (like nearly all corals) like nutrition.' It's been my experience that zoas do best when passively being feed a variety of different sized foods, good phyto blends, reefroids, freze dried cyclops or calanus, and the ultimate food, mysis/brine slurry from thawed foods. This is especially important for the long-term health of micro and other very small polyped zoas that can't ingest larger particulate.

@Tavero I'd add that alk stability is another area that doesn't get as much attention as it should. In the two years since I've separated the bulk of my zoa collection from the display, I haven't experienced nearly the same challenges I did when I had to account for large acro and lps colonies sucking alk out of the system. Admittedly, I was running an auto doser once a day with bionic, if running a calcium reactor it would have been more stable.


@Edgecrusher28 I recall you taking up experiment from the other tread we were on. I'd add that since that time I've begun using an Aqua UV 57 on my trough and I've experienced a profound drop off in the number of zoas getting sick. This has been about 7-8 weeks now but the difference in tangible. I've coupled that with aggressive initial QT but I'm certain the best way to keep things healthy is to prevent hitchhikers (even unicellular ones) from getting in in the first place.

I have had a Pentair 25W UV installed on this tank since day one, maybe that only means my problems would be worse without it; but who knows.