Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).

[Snoopdog]

Are there some obvious differences in your 20g compared to the display tank (except the temperature)? Flow, lighting, age of tank, amount of life rock vs volume?

Did you use chemicals in your display tank? The first time I have treated my tank was over 3 years ago due to a cyano outbreak. At that time I didn't have a large amount of zoa frags and some also melted after buying. But the rest of them were actually growing.

Initially the light, but I ruled that out. The 20g has only been setup for a few weeks.

Chemicals? Not, not ever other than alk and calcium, things like that. I have never done one of these cure things like I see other people do.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

How big is the other tank? Does the problem exist in both tanks?

Both tanks are basically identical, they are 75 gallon tanks with trigger CR44 sumps, so a bit over 100 gallon in total volume after rock and sand. I have Zoa frags in this tank that were moved from the troubled tank and they have not made a recovery yet. Both tanks however scored nearly equally crappy on the Aquabiomics test, but this tank has not be treated with any anti-biotics or algae issue products unlike my main tank.

 

[Snoopdog]

Both tanks are basically identical, they are 75 gallon tanks with trigger CR44 sumps, so a bit over 100 gallon in total volume after rock and sand. I have Zoa frags in this tank that were moved from the troubled tank and they have not made a recovery yet. Both tanks however scored nearly equally crappy on the Aquabiomics test, but this tank has not be treated with any anti-biotics or algae issue products unlike my main tank.

One has to wonder. I just brushed the insane amount of dinos off of the frag plugs in the 20g but they were just still open like nothing is going on. We just got our water vials in the envelopes and ready to go in the mail tomorrow, how long did it take for you to get results? Any concern over this insane heat changing test results? It is hot as hades in Alabama right now.

So if we go off the assumption that the difference between my two tanks is that one has fresh live rock, then that is problematic because yours have not recovered yet. Sure our problems could be different...but.

 

[Snoopdog]

I really do find it funny how much crap people say, basically regurgitate the same talking points about zoas. I wonder if the people replying have actually even dealt with this. The funniest one was a post where the guy said "Some suspect its a cyclical/seasonal thing". Yeah dude seasonal, sure. The same thread someone was theorizing how long they actually lived and maybe they are just old. I mean really the internet is a cesspool of misinformation. Funny follow ups are the insane amounts of posta about asterina or copepods, but then the picture they post is an amphipod. It is really hard to take them serious when they do not even know what a copepod looks like. Well for starters if there is an asterina on them then it is doing it's duty cleaning them up, I mean that is what they do. Amphipods are just detritus eaters most of the time but they are not eating your zoanthid so there again, they are cleaning.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

I really do find it funny how much crap people say, basically regurgitate the same talking points about zoas. I wonder if the people replying have actually even dealt with this. The funniest one was a post where the guy said "Some suspect its a cyclical/seasonal thing". Yeah dude seasonal, sure. The same thread someone was theorizing how long they actually lived and maybe they are just old. I mean really the internet is a cesspool of misinformation. Funny follow ups are the insane amounts of posta about asterina or copepods, but then the picture they post is an amphipod. It is really hard to take them serious when they do not even know what a copepod looks like. Well for starters if there is an asterina on them then it is doing it's duty cleaning them up, I mean that is what they do. Amphipods are just detritus eaters most of the time but they are not eating your zoanthid so there again, they are cleaning.

There is a tremendous amount of information out there these days, and as you had mentioned it can be both good and bad. I honestly have tried not to discredit any suggestions or input during this process here. yes, a lot of the recommendations have been repetitive and or redundant but you just never know until you know. The seasonal issues comment I thought maybe, just maybe could be a real thing for some. If you live up north, then there are about 4-6 months where your house is closed up (windows and such) and if you have your tank in a well populated area or in the basement then perhaps the C02 level could run the PH down enough to become acidic and damage the corals. This is the reason I installed the ORP/PH monitor on the tank to make sure this was not my issues. We all have to remember that ours and others experiences or remedies may not be the next guys , though the symptoms appear to be the same. As they say, correlation is not causation, or as we say in the airline flying industry, trust but verify.

 

[blecki]

but this tank has not be treated with any anti-biotics or algae issue products unlike my main tank.

Sounds like you've got a variable to test.

Perhaps one of these products is still in the water or in the rocks. Take a frag from the good tank and switch it with one from the bad tank and observe both.

 

[Tavero]

Initially the light, but I ruled that out. The 20g has only been setup for a few weeks.

Chemicals? Not, not ever other than alk and calcium, things like that. I have never done one of these cure things like I see other people do.

Huh. Thats intriguing. When my tank sprung a leak in February and I had to set up a new one I did a "Rip cleaning". After that my zoas weren't without issues (very slow groth etc) but at least they didn't melt. Now after 6 months everything is back to melting.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Sounds like you've got a variable to test.

Perhaps one of these products is still in the water or in the rocks. Take a frag from the good tank and switch it with one from the bad tank and observe both.

I have, I moved over four or so frags into this tank. They continue to look about the same as they did before. But as I have previously mentioned. Both tanks have a biodiversity and bacterial problem as shown on the Biomics test.

 

[Tavero]

Well for starters if there is an asterina on them then it is doing it's duty cleaning them up, I mean that is what they do. Amphipods are just detritus eaters most of the time but they are not eating your zoanthid so there again, they are cleaning.

I have to disagree with that. Amphipods were always giving me issues, therefore I had to eradicate them. In all of my tanks they were actively eating healthy zoanthid polyps.
There is no way to misinterpret the symptoms though. If several tentacles are missing in the morning something was eating them. This doesn't happen in our cases.

 

[Snoopdog]

I have to disagree with that. Amphipods were always giving me issues, therefore I had to eradicate them. In all of my tanks they were actively eating healthy zoanthid polyps.
There is no way to misinterpret the symptoms though. If several tentacles are missing in the morning something was eating them. This doesn't happen in our cases.

I would have to witness this. People say that they damage corals but all I see are them scampering around. Now if a coral is dying, sure they are eating the dead flesh. People also say hermits and emerald crabs eat their corals, I likely at this point have 40-50 crabs in my tank and have yet to witness them eat anything but what they are supposed to eat.

 

[Tavero]

I would have to witness this. People say that they damage corals but all I see are them scampering around. Now if a coral is dying, sure they are eating the dead flesh. People also say hermits and emerald crabs eat their corals, I likely at this point have 40-50 crabs in my tank and have yet to witness them eat anything but what they are supposed to eat.

That's now a bit off topic but animals will always eat what they are able to. Cows and Horses will eat chicks and small rodents if they get the opportunity. Mice will eat animals several times their size if these are vulnerable and they can get away with it. Amphipods are fully capable of eating corals (their mandibles are strong enough). The only reason they don't do it in most tank is a difference in risk/reward and ecological pressure. There are even videos here on this forum of amphipods eating healthy corals. If they don't do it in your tank be happy and hope it stays that way.

 

[Tavero]

Well then. I have run out of patience and will probably restart my tank. Life rock is ordered and will arrive tomorrow. i will first store it in an empty tank and think about what to do. On one hand I want to get rid of the old rock, on the other I want to keep the animals that are growing on it. Some of the clams that are living inside my rocks are already 10 years old and have survived several tank crashes.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Well then. I have run out of patience and will probably restart my tank. Life rock is ordered and will arrive tomorrow. i will first store it in an empty tank and think about what to do. On one hand I want to get rid of the old rock, on the other I want to keep the animals that are growing on it. Some of the clams that are living inside my rocks are already 10 years old and have survived several tank crashes.

Well good luck with your new setup, I have thought about starting fresh with this tank a few times over by now. Let us know what you find with your new setup.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

ICP RESULTS BACK
ICP test results are back, and everything seems to be mostly normal. Iron and nickel seem to be super high even though I stopped dosing awhile back, but I am not chasing it. A few other trace elements needs a bump which I will dose over the next three days.

AQUABIOMICS TEST SENT OUT
My second Aquabiomics test was sent out and received by them today 8-17, I am guessing a good 4 weeks before those results are back in. Excited to see if there was an y improvement on the biome in this tank after adding all of that live rock.

BUBBLE SCRUBING?
Because why not, I am going to start running wooden air stones in the return chamber under the pumps to bubble scrub the tank for an hour or two each day; who knows.

 

[Snoopdog]

ICP RESULTS BACK
ICP test results are back, and everything seems to be mostly normal. Iron and nickel seem to be super high even though I stopped dosing awhile back, but I am not chasing it. A few other trace elements needs a bump which I will dose over the next three days.

AQUABIOMICS TEST SENT OUT
My second Aquabiomics test was sent out and received by them today 8-17, I am guessing a good 4 weeks before those results are back in. Excited to see if there was an y improvement on the biome in this tank after adding all of that live rock.

BUBBLE SCRUBING?
Because why not, I am going to start running wooden air stones in the return chamber under the pumps to bubble scrub the tank for an hour or two each day; who knows.

I would be concerned about that super low iodine level. Manganese and Vanadium were low but your zinc levels are off the chart. There has got to be some reasoning on that zinc level. You use sunscreen a lot and then maybe pull algae by hand? Your ICP was pretty comparable to mine but my zinc level was not like that. I was low on trace elements and iodine just like yours. I am beginning to wonder if since I grow tons of macro algae if I am not ripping so many trace elements the caulerpa is getting everything before the zoas, just thinking out loud.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

I would be concerned about that super low iodine level. Manganese and Vanadium were low but your zinc levels are off the chart. There has got to be some reasoning on that zinc level. You use sunscreen a lot and then maybe pull algae by hand? Your ICP was pretty comparable to mine but my zinc level was not like that. I was low on trace elements and iodine just like yours. I am beginning to wonder if since I grow tons of macro algae if I am not ripping so many trace elements the caulerpa is getting everything before the zoas, just thinking out loud.

I have gone down the Iodine rabbit hole a few times before and I just do not believe its a make or break situation being a little high or low. Remember I have maintained ICP test results in the mid 90% with ATI for a long time and it was clearly not the solution to my problem, so for now I'm not playing that game anymore; but, your milage may vary.

 

[Snoopdog]

I have gone down the Iodine rabbit hole a few times before and I just do not believe its a make or break situation being a little high or low. Remember I have maintained ICP test results in the mid 90% with ATI for a long time and it was clearly not the solution to my problem, so for now I'm not playing that game anymore; but, your milage may vary.

Not saying it is by any means, but it is something. That is the thing, something is causing the syndrome. Sure it could vary depending on zoa or each individual tank, but maybe not.

 

[Snoopdog]

I mentioned sunscreen before and there is a reason. Something changed in my tank after my tank busted and we moved into the planet aquarium. I have went down avenues of a change of lighting, possible nutrients being missing like trace elements. I had a random thought yesterday that seemed crazy at first but there again maybe it is not so far fetched. Shortly after my tank exploded spring started and we were also called back to work. I could no longer use a walking treadmill desk so I started walking outside at lunch. I would spray myself down with sunscreen before I walked. I did not think much about it at the time but I have my arms in my tank way more these days moving things around or snipping algae, basically getting things were I want them in the new tank. The can just got replaced but I did google the ingredient list, all bad.

homosalate
octisalate
octocrylene
zinc oxide

I do not see these showing up on an ICP test, maybe the zinc would. If marine biologist are saying these chemicals are affecting corals in large bodies of water can you imagine what it would do in a tiny contained area? I am going to do massive water changes starting this weekend and never spray my hands or arms again when applying sunscreen, I will go ahead and get arm length gloves on my next order. It could be a red herring, but who knows. But thinking now, if I have sunscreen on my arms during the weekdays and stick my full arm in the tank 5 days a week then those previous water changes did not do jack.

So the good news is if this idea of mine is correct then it is easy to reverse. I know for a fact within a day or two of being in the 20 gallon, corals amazingly do better and at a 100% rate so far and that would indicate the damage is not permanent. I am not sure how many large water changes would reverse this, I think two or three.

I am still reading on this matter but Benzophenone-3 (BP-3; oxybenzone) affects corals when they are introduced to light. I do not think this ingredient was in my sunscreen but the ingredients listed may have the same affect. It does make me wonder because in the morning my zoas were absolutely more likely to open and then close when exposed to light longer than an hour or two. I am not a marine biologist or chemist by any stretch of the imagination so it is just observation on my part.

 

[Tavero]

I mentioned sunscreen before and there is a reason. Something changed in my tank after my tank busted and we moved into the planet aquarium. I have went down avenues of a change of lighting, possible nutrients being missing like trace elements. I had a random thought yesterday that seemed crazy at first but there again maybe it is not so far fetched. Shortly after my tank exploded spring started and we were also called back to work. I could no longer use a walking treadmill desk so I started walking outside at lunch. I would spray myself down with sunscreen before I walked. I did not think much about it at the time but I have my arms in my tank way more these days moving things around or snipping algae, basically getting things were I want them in the new tank. The can just got replaced but I did google the ingredient list, all bad.

homosalate
octisalate
octocrylene
zinc oxide

I do not see these showing up on an ICP test, maybe the zinc would. If marine biologist are saying these chemicals are affecting corals in large bodies of water can you imagine what it would do in a tiny contained area? I am going to do massive water changes starting this weekend and never spray my hands or arms again when applying sunscreen, I will go ahead and get arm length gloves on my next order. It could be a red herring, but who knows. But thinking now, if I have sunscreen on my arms during the weekdays and stick my full arm in the tank 5 days a week then those previous water changes did not do jack.

So the good news is if this idea of mine is correct then it is easy to reverse. I know for a fact within a day or two of being in the 20 gallon, corals amazingly do better and at a 100% rate so far and that would indicate the damage is not permanent. I am not sure how many large water changes would reverse this, I think two or three.

I am still reading on this matter but Benzophenone-3 (BP-3; oxybenzone) affects corals when they are introduced to light. I do not think this ingredient was in my sunscreen but the ingredients listed may have the same affect. It does make me wonder because in the morning my zoas were absolutely more likely to open and then close when exposed to light longer than an hour or two. I am not a marine biologist or chemist by any stretch of the imagination so it is just observation on my part.

I don't use sunscreen and my zoas are still melting. Even if this was the reason, these chemicals are hydrophob so skimmers are exceptionally efficient in removing them, also Edgecrusher28 is using GAC which would remove them too.

 

[Snoopdog]

I don't use sunscreen and my zoas are still melting. Even if this was the reason, these chemicals hydrophob so skimmers are exceptionally efficient in removing them, also Edgecrusher28 is using GAC which would remove them too.

Do we know that? We know that skimmers and carbon remove some chemicals, but do we know that they remove that particular chemical?