Myths and Misinformation - fish edition

[Jay Hemdal]

These are great points to help alleviate the spread of bad information by proving the information that has been studied and recorded beyond just anecdotal assumptions!


I understand that the fish are not grounded so will not be shocked just being in the water if there is stray voltage, but I've been wondering if there are any studies that indicate whether or not fish could sense stray voltage with their lateral line and be stressed by it, thus potentially allowing health issues through reduced immunity?
Is it thoroughly proven that stray voltage has no effect on the fish at all?

To be clear, I am just asking the question with no implications, as I am just curious and have no known prior experience or evidence.

So - as you are probably aware, it actually needs to start with the people saying that stray voltage causes health issues to prove that is true, not for me to prove they are wrong (grin).

I can only speak about head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE) but stray voltage is frequently implicated in that malady. In my 2011 study, we ruled out stray voltage as a contributing factor for that.

The issue is that "stray voltage" can be measured in just about every aquarium, so it become a "cause and effect" issue for a whole slew of problems. That's why is have become such a "bogeyman".

As I mentioned though, stray/induced voltage is not the same as an electrical malfunction - those can cause human and fish issues, and can be dangerous. Most of the fish issues seen with electrical malfunctions seem to relate to the electrolysis of the water that happens - possibly the changing of sulfite to sulfide.

Jay

 

[Rick's Reviews]

Do you believe supplements are useless for humans? I state in many of my threads that I don't use supplements and rely on a combination of fresh and live foods. But I have found that many times to help people you must give them options that they can adhere to, if they are not going to feed fatty fish for whatever reason, then injecting their food with necessary efas is a better option than nothing. Do you disagree that fish absorb elements form the water column?, I've seen this to be true by digestive issues being alleviated by raising mg. You can't make it either this way or you're wrong, I;ve learned that myself. I've seen my naturalistic way to have worked for me over 30 years, and I've achieved success with certain species beyond anyone else I have ever known.




When I write my threads on these subjects, I list the exact species, this post was implied to be in the broader sense.



My success and others may have something to say about calling us wrong. I specifically mentioned the situation where it may be necessary and exacting the meds and disease which was being addressed. Again the absolute, this is the way and that's that, sorry it doesn;t work that way, you must give individuals options in which they can manage.

Are you ... or thinking like aqua man?
I'm Confused as my Diet needs are very different to my aquriam life needs, I eat fish, shrimps clams, yet I keep fish, shrimps etc... I'm confused

 

[lion king]

Metro+focus works, but ONLY if you dose it correctly - 0.50% metro by weight in the food. If you don't know the concentration of the drug, don't use it. You wouldn't add an unknown amount of a drug to your tank water, why would you do that in their food?

You would only do this if you had no other ooption.

I promised myself a couple a days that I had made my last post warning of copper toxicity, now let's make this one my last. It's a futile arguement.

 

[MnFish1]

Do you believe supplements are useless for humans? I state in many of my threads that I don't use supplements and rely on a combination of fresh and live foods. But I have found that many times to help people you must give them options that they can adhere to, if they are not going to feed fatty fish for whatever reason, then injecting their food with necessary efas is a better option than nothing. Do you disagree that fish absorb elements form the water column?, I've seen this to be true by digestive issues being alleviated by raising mg. You can't make it either this way or you're wrong, I;ve learned that myself. I've seen my naturalistic way to have worked for me over 30 years, and I've achieved success with certain species beyond anyone else I have ever known.

No - in certain humans supplements are useful. In the aquarium trade - they are recommend 'in general'. It's a little unclear - on one hand you're talking about the need for feeding 'fatty fish' - yet many fish are herbivores - only eating small amounts of 'fatty fish'. If you're talking about 'predatory fish' - that was a specific question I asked.

My success and others may have something to say about calling us wrong. I specifically mentioned the situation where it may be necessary and exacting the meds and disease which was being addressed. Again the absolute, this is the way and that's that, sorry it doesn;t work that way, you must give individuals options in which they can manage.

I asked you to post your studies - and results in the experimental section - so they can be analyzed - until then - I guess I'm not going to say they are right - OR wrong.

 

[Rick's Reviews]

No - in certain humans supplements are useful. In the aquarium trade - they are recommend 'in general'. It's a little unclear - on one hand you're talking about the need for feeding 'fatty fish' - yet many fish are herbivores - only eating small amounts of 'fatty fish'. If you're talking about 'predatory fish' - that was a specific question I asked.

I asked you to post your studies - and results in the experimental section - so they can be analyzed - until then - I guess I'm not going to say they are right - OR wrong.

Not all of are scientists..
We are happy to help but unfortunately what you ask is beyond normal aqurist knowledge

 

[lion king]

No - in certain humans supplements are useful. In the aquarium trade - they are recommend 'in general'. It's a little unclear - on one hand you're talking about the need for feeding 'fatty fish' - yet many fish are herbivores - only eating small amounts of 'fatty fish'. If you're talking about 'predatory fish' - that was a specific question I asked.

I just used that as an example of a point of reference. Although I do have general knowledge of many species I do mostly focus my information to predatory fish, and the lack of fats are a problem with lions, eels, and many others that would consume live whole fish in the wild. I would offer recommendations specific to the needs of the individual species. For herbivores, the best "medicine" would be live macro and micro algaes. I don't really mean medicine, but it would be the best foundation to great health. A grazing herbivore would benefit greatly from a mature tank with live micro algae growing and an offering of live macro algae. They do also benefit from protein and fat, but when it comes to herbivores they usually miss the whole nutrients found in their natural live foods, which would be live algaes. Nutrition is only the foundation to health, without good nutrition fish will be more prone to disease and injuries turning bad, it's not to replace the need for medicines, when required. Another reason I try and offer other solutions to medications, and am especially against prophylactic treatments, is that most everyday hobbyist fail miserably when attempting to use medications,

 

[MnFish1]

I just used that as an example of a point of reference. Although I do have general knowledge of many species I do mostly focus my information to predatory fish, and the lack of fats are a problem with lions, eels, and many others that would consume live whole fish in the wild. I would offer recommendations specific to the needs of the individual species. For herbivores, the best "medicine" would be live macro and micro algaes. I don't really mean medicine, but it would be the best foundation to great health. A grazing herbivore would benefit greatly from a mature tank with live micro algae growing and an offering of live macro algae. They do also benefit from protein and fat, but when it comes to herbivores they usually miss the whole nutrients found in their natural live foods, which would be live algaes. Nutrition is only the foundation to health, without good nutrition fish will be more prone to disease and injuries turning bad, it's not to replace the need for medicines, when required. Another reason I try and offer other solutions to medications, and am especially against prophylactic treatments, is that most everyday hobbyist fail miserably when attempting to use medications,

Thanks for clarifying

 

[sc50964]

You would only do this if you had no other ooption.

I promised myself a couple a days that I had made my last post warning of copper toxicity, now let's make this one my last. It's a futile arguement.

As far as your experience with lethal copper toxicity goes, does it make a difference between cupramine and coppersafe or power?

 

[littlefoxx]

Before using or repeating any of the following information, please research it more thoroughly. This is misinformation frequently seen online:


Mixing medications with focus+food – this cannot work unless you calculate the dose properly. General Cure cannot be dosed orally, as the two components have two different oral doses.

Using dietary supplements as a “medication” the best diet in the world will not stop active infections – this is called the “chicken soup” syndrome.

Adding vitamins or food additives to the aquarium’s water – this just feeds the heterotrophic bacteria, aquatic animals, if they uptake it at all, do so slower than the bacteria does.

Nitrite is toxic to marine fish – ammonia is highly toxic to marine fish at a high pH, but the salts in the water completely de-toxify nitrite ions for marine fish. Nitrite IS deadly to freshwater fish, unless some salt is added to the water.

76 day fallow period (or longer) for Cryptocaryon – published in a paper where the co-author was also the editor for the journal. The original study was from a PhD thesis that isn’t available. 45 to 60 days at 81 degrees F. is a more reasonable fallow period.

Ramp up medications slowly – too many fish die from disease if you take too long, dealers don’t do this, should you? (the only exception is salt when you are raising the salinity).

Drip acclimating shipped fish – not if there is high ammonia. Best to match the temperature, pH and salinity and move the fish directly over and then acclimate them (with no ammonia) to your tank.

Tank Transfer Method (TTM) – only works for ich (in some cases) and not for egg laying flukes at all, can be very rough on fish due to ammonia and excessive handling, and already stressed fish being housed in buckets.

Using RODI and no aeration for FW dips – use aerated, pH and temperature balanced water in all cases. Tap water is fine!

Using black mollies as “canaries” – really only screens for ich, Cryptocaryon, and can introduce euryhaline trematodes into the system.

Mortality caused by medications, years after application. Copper, formalin and cyanide have all been implicated in fish loss years after exposure – this is not borne out by histopathology.

“Stray voltage” causes fish loss or health issues – This is a red herring, stray or induced voltage has no affect on fish, as they are not grounded, so there is no electrical potential. True electrical shorts can harm fish, as well as people. All aquariums must be plugged into GFI circuits.

Does this fallow period at 42-60 days work for velvet?? This is very good info!!

 

[lion king]

As far as your experience with lethal copper toxicity goes, does it make a difference between cupramine and coppersafe or power?

Just as hobbyist will argue which is safer, which is more effective, I believe they are both risky. It all comes down to risk vs reward, so you have to balance that for yourself.

 

[Spare time]

I just used that as an example of a point of reference. Although I do have general knowledge of many species I do mostly focus my information to predatory fish, and the lack of fats are a problem with lions, eels, and many others that would consume live whole fish in the wild. I would offer recommendations specific to the needs of the individual species. For herbivores, the best "medicine" would be live macro and micro algaes. I don't really mean medicine, but it would be the best foundation to great health. A grazing herbivore would benefit greatly from a mature tank with live micro algae growing and an offering of live macro algae. They do also benefit from protein and fat, but when it comes to herbivores they usually miss the whole nutrients found in their natural live foods, which would be live algaes. Nutrition is only the foundation to health, without good nutrition fish will be more prone to disease and injuries turning bad, it's not to replace the need for medicines, when required. Another reason I try and offer other solutions to medications, and am especially against prophylactic treatments, is that most everyday hobbyist fail miserably when attempting to use medications,

" Nutrition is only the foundation to health"

That is simply not true. Yes energy intake is important to immune function due to its costly nature when one is sick, but energy and macro/micronutrient intake is only one aspect into maintaining a living system. Inflammation, behavior, aggression given/received, stress, rank / social status, social system, the environment, repair mechanics and their triggers, genetics, body/cell regulations, the specific pathogen, etc. all matter. Health is far more complicated than that

 

[trainbob]

Some people claim that hydrogen peroxide can cure some fish diseases. Any thoughts about this treatment.

 

[Reeflix]

Ramp up medications slowly – too many fish die from disease if you take too long, dealers don’t do this, should you? (the only exception is salt when you are raising the salinity)

i am assuming that wrasses are exempt from this (when using copper, correct?) but say for other fish how much can you raise it? (copper). thank you for posting this helpful info!

 

[Jase4224]

Before using or repeating any of the following information, please research it more thoroughly. This is misinformation frequently seen online:


Mixing medications with focus+food – this cannot work unless you calculate the dose properly. General Cure cannot be dosed orally, as the two components have two different oral doses.

Using dietary supplements as a “medication” the best diet in the world will not stop active infections – this is called the “chicken soup” syndrome.

Adding vitamins or food additives to the aquarium’s water – this just feeds the heterotrophic bacteria, aquatic animals, if they uptake it at all, do so slower than the bacteria does.

Nitrite is toxic to marine fish – ammonia is highly toxic to marine fish at a high pH, but the salts in the water completely de-toxify nitrite ions for marine fish. Nitrite IS deadly to freshwater fish, unless some salt is added to the water.

76 day fallow period (or longer) for Cryptocaryon – published in a paper where the co-author was also the editor for the journal. The original study was from a PhD thesis that isn’t available. 45 to 60 days at 81 degrees F. is a more reasonable fallow period.

Ramp up medications slowly – too many fish die from disease if you take too long, dealers don’t do this, should you? (the only exception is salt when you are raising the salinity).

Drip acclimating shipped fish – not if there is high ammonia. Best to match the temperature, pH and salinity and move the fish directly over and then acclimate them (with no ammonia) to your tank.

Tank Transfer Method (TTM) – only works for ich (in some cases) and not for egg laying flukes at all, can be very rough on fish due to ammonia and excessive handling, and already stressed fish being housed in buckets.

Using RODI and no aeration for FW dips – use aerated, pH and temperature balanced water in all cases. Tap water is fine!

Using black mollies as “canaries” – really only screens for ich, Cryptocaryon, and can introduce euryhaline trematodes into the system.

Mortality caused by medications, years after application. Copper, formalin and cyanide have all been implicated in fish loss years after exposure – this is not borne out by histopathology.

“Stray voltage” causes fish loss or health issues – This is a red herring, stray or induced voltage has no affect on fish, as they are not grounded, so there is no electrical potential. True electrical shorts can harm fish, as well as people. All aquariums must be plugged into GFI circuits.

Great write up!

What are the most effective methods for eliminating internal parasites? I’m comfortable doing QT at home but this is my biggest concern.

 

[sc50964]

Just as hobbyist will argue which is safer, which is more effective, I believe they are both risky. It all comes down to risk vs reward, so you have to balance that for yourself.

Most LFS uses cupramine since it’s cheaper. They also use UV. This combination could be toxic to fish based on Seachem. I was hoping your exp and study were largely from LFS. Or did it include coppersafe or power as well?

 

[lion king]

Most LFS uses cupramine since it’s cheaper. They also use UV. This combination could be toxic to fish based on Seachem. I was hoping your exp and study were largely from LFS. Or did it include coppersafe or power as well?

I can't say for sure but I can check, for some reason I didn;t think it was cupramine.

 

[EstelleOrain]

Before using or repeating any of the following information, please research it more thoroughly. This is misinformation frequently seen online:


Mixing medications with focus+food – this cannot work unless you calculate the dose properly. General Cure cannot be dosed orally, as the two components have two different oral doses.

Using dietary supplements as a “medication” the best diet in the world will not stop active infections – this is called the “chicken soup” syndrome.

Adding vitamins or food additives to the aquarium’s water – this just feeds the heterotrophic bacteria, aquatic animals, if they uptake it at all, do so slower than the bacteria does.

Nitrite is toxic to marine fish – ammonia is highly toxic to marine fish at a high pH, but the salts in the water completely de-toxify nitrite ions for marine fish. Nitrite IS deadly to freshwater fish, unless some salt is added to the water.

76 day fallow period (or longer) for Cryptocaryon – published in a paper where the co-author was also the editor for the journal. The original study was from a PhD thesis that isn’t available. 45 to 60 days at 81 degrees F. is a more reasonable fallow period.

Ramp up medications slowly – too many fish die from disease if you take too long, dealers don’t do this, should you? (the only exception is salt when you are raising the salinity).

Drip acclimating shipped fish – not if there is high ammonia. Best to match the temperature, pH and salinity and move the fish directly over and then acclimate them (with no ammonia) to your tank.

Tank Transfer Method (TTM) – only works for ich (in some cases) and not for egg laying flukes at all, can be very rough on fish due to ammonia and excessive handling, and already stressed fish being housed in buckets.

Using RODI and no aeration for FW dips – use aerated, pH and temperature balanced water in all cases. Tap water is fine!

Using black mollies as “canaries” – really only screens for ich, Cryptocaryon, and can introduce euryhaline trematodes into the system.

Mortality caused by medications, years after application. Copper, formalin and cyanide have all been implicated in fish loss years after exposure – this is not borne out by histopathology.

“Stray voltage” causes fish loss or health issues – This is a red herring, stray or induced voltage has no affect on fish, as they are not grounded, so there is no electrical potential. True electrical shorts can harm fish, as well as people. All aquariums must be plugged into GFI circuits.

Thanks for posting this, some of these I was always curious how true they were!

 

[atoll]

Some people claim that hydrogen peroxide can cure some fish diseases. Any thoughts about this treatment.

Ķ

Some people claim that hydrogen peroxide can cure some fish diseases. Any thoughts about this treatment.

Do you mean certain parasites rather than diseases?

 

[Bruce Burnett]

These are great points to help alleviate the spread of bad information by proving the information that has been studied and recorded beyond just anecdotal assumptions!


I understand that the fish are not grounded so will not be shocked just being in the water if there is stray voltage, but I've been wondering if there are any studies that indicate whether or not fish could sense stray voltage with their lateral line and be stressed by it, thus potentially allowing health issues through reduced immunity?
Is it thoroughly proven that stray voltage has no effect on the fish at all?

To be clear, I am just asking the question with no implications, as I am just curious and have no known prior experience or evidence.

This is one that many older hobbyist can answer. Most kept freshwater tanks first and some even had got into some saltwater fish using same equipment. Crome or iron framed tanks with glass set in a mastic like tar, metal hoods with incandescent light bulb. You would get shocked by full 110 volts touching the hood, tank frame or water. People try to claim induced voltage from a pump will kill fish and try to get zero readings. But yet early tanks that if grounded would be a direct short and blow a fuse. I remember first tanks, freshwater that my father kept. Our house had no ground wires and you pulled the plugs before working on tanks or you got one heck of a shock. Saltwater really changed things for aquarium hoods as saltwater splash was really bad with metal hoods and regular light bulbs.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Does this fallow period at 42-60 days work for velvet?? This is very good info!!

At a minimum, 45 days for velvet, but 60 is safer. The 76 study wasn't done on velvet though, only marine ich.

Jay