Myths and Misinformation - fish edition

These are often repeated bits of information that are perpetuated by people using old or incorrect information. Once it becomes "common knowledge" it continues to spread through the Internet, often being changed or over-simplified in the process. These are some examples of misinformation about fish that are frequently seen online:


Mixing medications with Focus+food – this cannot work unless you calculate the dose properly. General Cure should not be dosed orally, as the two components have two different oral doses. This article discusses that: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/proper-dosing-of-medicated-foods.780/

Using dietary supplements as a “medication” the best diet in the world will not stop active infections – this is called the “chicken soup” syndrome. A proper diet is of course important for long-term fish health, it's just that changing to "great diet" will not stop active disease. Dietary deficiencies cause nutritional diseases, but that does not mean that a great diet cures parasitic disease.

Adding vitamins or food additives to the aquarium’s water – this just feeds the heterotrophic bacteria, aquatic animals, if they uptake it at all, do so slower than the bacteria does.

Nitrite is toxic to marine fish – ammonia is highly toxic to marine fish at a high pH, but the salts in the water completely de-toxify nitrite ions for marine fish. Nitrite IS deadly to freshwater fish, unless some salt is added to the water.

76 day fallow period (or longer) for Cryptocaryon – published in a paper where the co-author was also the editor for the journal. The original study was from a PhD thesis that isn’t widely available. 45 to 60 days at 81 degrees F. is a more reasonable fallow period. Fallow periods for other diseases are different.

Ramp up medications slowly – too many fish die from disease if you take too long, dealers don’t do this, should you? (the only exception is salt when you are raising the salinity or the old ionic copper/citric acid solutions).

Drip acclimating shipped fish – not if there is high ammonia. Best to match the temperature, pH and salinity and move the fish directly over and then acclimate them (with no ammonia) to your tank.

Tank Transfer Method (TTM) – this method does work, but in my opinion, it works best for ich (Cryptocaryon) and not for egg laying flukes at all. It can be very rough on fish due to ammonia and excessive handling, and already stressed fish being housed in small containers. Remember that lateral viewing of new fish is a vital tool for diagnosis....top down views in buckets or totes do not give you a good enough view of how the fish is doing. Then, just when is TTM useful given the logistics of treating diseases? If you use it as part of a quarantine process, you still need a single tank to run the fish through additional quarantine for flukes. If your DT develops ich and you want to use TTM, you can't do that and just put the fish back into the DT, the ich will still be active. That means you would run TTM, but then need to move the fish to another tank during the proper fallow period for the DT.

Using RODI and no aeration for FW dips – use aerated, pH and temperature balanced water in all cases. Tap water is fine!

Using black mollies as “canaries” – really only screens for ich, Cryptocaryon, and can introduce euryhaline trematodes into the system.

Mortality caused by medications, years after application. Copper, formalin and cyanide have all been implicated in fish loss years after exposure – this is not borne out by histopathology or veterinary necropsy. Public aquariums all have comprehensive, proactive quarantine/treatment protocols, yet they have some of the longest-lived fish. I've done three studies since 1983 that all show that latent cyanide mortality (while often severe) always manifests itself within 30 to 50 days of exposure. Long term copper exposure has been shown to cause damage to fish, but this is ionic, not chelated copper, and the toxicity appeared during or shortly after the copper exposure.

“Stray voltage” causes fish loss or health issues – This is a red herring, stray or induced voltage (typically < 50 VAC) has no measurable affect on marine fish, as they are not grounded, so there is no electrical potential. Stray voltage has been ruled out as a cause of HLLE. True electrical shorts can harm or kill fish, as well as people. All aquariums must be plugged into GFI circuits.
Now I kinda feel dumb for doing 86 days @81F. Well you can never be careful lol. I’m hoping my fallow period worked. I suspected mainly flukes for my tank. No way my fish could have survived for atleast 2-3 months with ich. I’m sure I did introduce ich unknowingly.
 
Adding vitamins or food additives to the aquarium’s water – this just feeds the heterotrophic bacteria, aquatic animals, if they uptake it at all, do so slower than the bacteria does.

Thank you for the great article.

Would using Focus to bind vitamins to defrosted food work?
 
Thank you for the great article.

Would using Focus to bind vitamins to defrosted food work?
I think the point was more talking about adding the vitamins directly in.

Like let's say dropping in selcon directly to the aquarium.

I think soaking the frozen without Focus should do enough of a job granted you leave it soaking long enough.

Focus would only really be necessary if you need exact/all dosage of a drug for the fish.

Also, unrelated, good to know the 76 days fallow is on shaky ground, I am guilty of parroting that number as well.
 
Thank you for the great article.

Would using Focus to bind vitamins to defrosted food work?
It works, but fat soluble vitamins can be overdosed, so you need to try and get the dose correct. If the vitamin maker gives a dose “vitamins per x amount of food”, then you can use that.
 
It works, but fat soluble vitamins can be overdosed, so you need to try and get the dose correct. If the vitamin maker gives a dose “vitamins per x amount of food”, then you can use that.
Thank you. And if it doesn't, are there any other ways to introduce vitamins to a fish's diet that you'd recommend? Especially for fish that don't take prepared foods such as pellets/flakes such as mandarins, etc?
 
Thank you. And if it doesn't, are there any other ways to introduce vitamins to a fish's diet that you'd recommend? Especially for fish that don't take prepared foods such as pellets/flakes such as mandarins, etc?

The two vitamins found to be deficient in many fish diets are thiamin and vitamin E. Other vitamins and nutrients are usually sufficient if the fish are fed a well rounded diet. Mazuri makes a thiamin / vitamin E paste, but it is pricey, and mostly used by public aquariums.
I’m not sure if there are any hobbyist products similar to that.
 
Hi @Jay Hemdal

I'd like to follow up on a couple of these items

1.) Ramping up medication - are there exception cases to this? Elliot Lim uses this method with wrasses in particular, and has said that most of the "copper intolerant" fish are actually fine with it if you give them time to recover and get healthy and ramp up the copper levels

2.) Drip acclimation - multiple sources these days are saying don't bother with shipped fish due to ammonia toxicity risks - can you elaborate on how significant PH is?

If temp is equalized through the bag, and salinity isn't an issue, should we just dump em in? (to QT and observation of course :))

Bonus question - how sensitive are fish REALLY to salinity? Is drip truly optimal, or we just use the "throw half of the water away and replace with tank water over the course of an hour" method?

(assuming we're able to keep temp equalized which is a big assumption - acclimation buckets usually hit room temp really quickly)
 
Hi @Jay Hemdal

I'd like to follow up on a couple of these items

1.) Ramping up medication - are there exception cases to this? Elliot Lim uses this method with wrasses in particular, and has said that most of the "copper intolerant" fish are actually fine with it if you give them time to recover and get healthy and ramp up the copper levels

2.) Drip acclimation - multiple sources these days are saying don't bother with shipped fish due to ammonia toxicity risks - can you elaborate on how significant PH is?

If temp is equalized through the bag, and salinity isn't an issue, should we just dump em in? (to QT and observation of course :))

Bonus question - how sensitive are fish REALLY to salinity? Is drip truly optimal, or we just use the "throw half of the water away and replace with tank water over the course of an hour" method?

(assuming we're able to keep temp equalized which is a big assumption - acclimation buckets usually hit room temp really quickly)

The only medication that needs to be ramped up slowly is ionic copper, and then with just certain species. Amine-chelated copper products are not an issue in that regard. Indeed, many stores maintain coppersafe levels in their fish systems and add new fish directly all of the time (I used to do that when I managed a store in the early 1980's). The only other need for a slow change is temperature changes greater than about 8 degrees and salinity rises of more than perhaps 0.003 units at a time.

Drip acclimation of shipped fish is an issue - virtually 100% of the people using this method do NOT measure the water flow, so how can they know if the method is too fast or too slow? pH is a huge factor in this - in a shipping bag, the water may contain 3 ppm total ammonia and have a pH of 6.5 - the fish don't appreciate that, but they don't die. Then, the bag is opened and CO2 escapes, raising the pH. Even with 50% of the water exchanged (and an even greater pH rise) the ammonia is going to be 1.5 ppm and even more toxic due to the change in its form.

I use the float and dump method for some fish, but with shipped fish, the pH is often too low to just dump the fish. In those cases, the trick is to move the fish to new, ammonia free water that is the same temperature and pH as the shipping water, and just acclimate up from that.

More info here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/acclimation-methods.903/
 
The only medication that needs to be ramped up slowly is ionic copper, and then with just certain species. Amine-chelated copper products are not an issue in that regard. Indeed, many stores maintain coppersafe levels in their fish systems and add new fish directly all of the time (I used to do that when I managed a store in the early 1980's). The only other need for a slow change is temperature changes greater than about 8 degrees and salinity rises of more than perhaps 0.003 units at a time.

Drip acclimation of shipped fish is an issue - virtually 100% of the people using this method do NOT measure the water flow, so how can they know if the method is too fast or too slow? pH is a huge factor in this - in a shipping bag, the water may contain 3 ppm total ammonia and have a pH of 6.5 - the fish don't appreciate that, but they don't die. Then, the bag is opened and CO2 escapes, raising the pH. Even with 50% of the water exchanged (and an even greater pH rise) the ammonia is going to be 1.5 ppm and even more toxic due to the change in its form.

I use the float and dump method for some fish, but with shipped fish, the pH is often too low to just dump the fish. In those cases, the trick is to move the fish to new, ammonia free water that is the same temperature and pH as the shipping water, and just acclimate up from that.

More info here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/acclimation-methods.903/

Unless water fish is going from QT to DT with exact parameters Salinity, pH, and temp.

Good post Jay and thanks for the link. I was wondering what happens to pH and ammonia during shipping and how it can wreck a fish if not done properly.
 
My contribution to mythbusting:

I can confirm what Jay has mentioned before - Mandarins tolerate copper just fine.

Feeding may or may not be an issue - mine eats pellets and mysis and I feed 3-4 times a day. We'll see if I can keep it fed long term through this hospital tank process- but they are not having any issues with 2.3-2.5 ppm Copper Power measured through the Hanna checker.

One of my biggest peeves in the hobby is how much "common lore" gets passed around as fact but is actually not based in fact at all - I know I've been guilty of it.

So maybe this will help some folks down the line

edit: young fish may be more vulnerable, so be careful if you're going with young captive bred fish from Biota or another breeder
 
Last edited:
My contribution to mythbusting:

I can confirm what Jay has mentioned before - Mandarins tolerate copper just fine.

Feeding may or may not be an issue - mine eats pellets and mysis and I feed 3-4 times a day. We'll see if I can keep it fed long term through this hospital tank process- but they are not having any issues with 2.3-2.5 ppm Copper Power measured through the Hanna checker.

One of my biggest peeves in the hobby is how much "common lore" gets passed around as fact but is actually not based in fact at all - I know I've been guilty of it.

So maybe this will help some folks down the line

So you've had good luck getting wild caught mandarins to eat pellets? That's great! - they usually only eat brine shrimp or live foods for me (sometimes chopped mysids). The tank raised ones seem to do really well on pellets.

IMO - it isn't the copper that harms mandarins, but rather, housing them in a bare QT where they can't get enough food. Then, since that is the scenario where copper is most often used, that gets blamed for any failure during quarantine (this applies to many cases where a species of fish was reported to be sensitive to copper).

I avoid copper on flashlight fish (it can kill their lights) and all sharks and rays. For eels, I expect them to go off feed during copper, but if they are in good condition, they will survive.
 
^ I should have specified Jay, it's a Biota mandarin who's been eating pellets since I got him 2 years ago.

I think you're exactly right - they're not sensitive to copper, at least not as adults, but with no pods they'll starve.

I feed mine DKI and Reef Nutrition pellets, and he slurps down mysis.

His name is Lemmewinks and if he survives the fallow/hospital ordeal, I'll tell his tale in another thread. He's been through the ringer.
 
Hi @Jay Hemdal,

I see this rule repeated everywhere on reefing forums and Facebook groups when people are diagnosing fish, but I don't know who first said it or where it came from: "If you can count the dots, it's ich, if not, it's velvet."

From what I've read in your posts, velvet rarely causes noticeable skin changes until the fish is basically on the brink of dying. It seems like a lot of cases are still being misdiagnosed because of that, even though they were actually severe ich cases.

Could we maybe add this to the post about myths and misinformation?
 
Hi @Jay Hemdal,

I see this rule repeated everywhere on reefing forums and Facebook groups when people are diagnosing fish, but I don't know who first said it or where it came from: "If you can count the dots, it's ich, if not, it's velvet."

From what I've read in your posts, velvet rarely causes noticeable skin changes until the fish is basically on the brink of dying. It seems like a lot of cases are still being misdiagnosed because of that, even though they were actually severe ich cases.

Could we maybe add this to the post about myths and misinformation?


Yes you would be correct. Velvet will usually hit the gills first before the body of a fish in most cases. Easy access to feeding on blood possibly. With that said it’s what makes it so dangerous and why you might not even see it before it starts killing fish.

Here is a severe case ich and most would say velvet. And it’s so severe that it’s also causing bacterial infection. This fish did not pass and made a recovery in copper. I took this pic when it was still at the LFS.

IMG_1461.jpeg



I have a video, somewhere in my hundreds of videos and photos haha, of velvet from long ago on a clown. Sadly at the time it was my first run in with velvet. And didn’t know what it was. If I find it I will post it. You can see the poor guy just gasping for air. And the color was more of a glazed doughnut look. Nothing really spot related.
 
Yes you would be correct. Velvet will usually hit the gills first before the body of a fish in most cases. Easy access to feeding on blood possibly. With that said it’s what makes it so dangerous and why you might not even see it before it starts killing fish.

Here is a severe case ich and most would say velvet. And it’s so severe that it’s also causing bacterial infection. This fish did not pass and made a recovery in copper. I took this pic when it was still at the LFS.

IMG_1461.jpeg



I have a video, somewhere in my hundreds of videos and photos haha, of velvet from long ago on a clown. Sadly at the time it was my first run in with velvet. And didn’t know what it was. If I find it I will post it. You can see the poor guy just gasping for air. And the color was more of a glazed doughnut look. Nothing really spot related.
Thanks, that makes sense. That photo is a really good example of why the "count the dots" rule can be misleading. And I suppose we can also rule out velvet when the fish is still feeding?
 
Thanks, that makes sense. That photo is a really good example of why the "count the dots" rule can be misleading. And I suppose we can also rule out velvet when the fish is still feeding?

What stage of velvet would have to be defined. Mid to late yes the fish will not be eating. And it’s usually dead quickly after that. But it will start with breathing and even swimming pattern.
 
Hi @Jay Hemdal,

I see this rule repeated everywhere on reefing forums and Facebook groups when people are diagnosing fish, but I don't know who first said it or where it came from: "If you can count the dots, it's ich, if not, it's velvet."

From what I've read in your posts, velvet rarely causes noticeable skin changes until the fish is basically on the brink of dying. It seems like a lot of cases are still being misdiagnosed because of that, even though they were actually severe ich cases.

Could we maybe add this to the post about myths and misinformation?

True velvet is very rare. Advanced ich is most commonly misidentified as it, but mixed infections of ich and flukes sometimes is as well.

The number and/or size of ich trophonts is highly variable depending on the state of the infection and the fish involved. Neon gobies show a few huge trophonts, while some tangs show many small ones.

Since copper handles both, the difference is mostly academic unless people are going to use hyposalinity - velvet thrives in that.
 

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