Need help with diagnosis

[Humblefish]

Formalin-ms is supposed to kill ich, brook, and velvet correct? Anything else it works on?

Formalin-MS is standard treatment for brook. Preferably, by doing baths and then moving the fish to a new QT (like doing tank transfer) after each bath. This will prevent the fish from continually being reinfected by free swimmers. Metronidazole and acriflavine are considered alternative treatments for brook, but I have no experience using either of those for that purpose. I only use metro to treat intestinal parasites.

Formalin can also be used to treat stubborn flukes, and may provide temporary relief for velvet and possibly even ich (by clearing the gills of those infestations.) But it's not enough to eradicate velvet & ich completely. I consider formalin only as a means of last resort. It is nasty stuff, harsh on the fish and a known carcinogen. Therefore, great care must be taken when using it. There is some anecdotal evidence that certain fish do not live past 18 months after using it on them. :sad:

Formalin: Treats Brooklynella and provides temporary relief for Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium). Also may be used as temporary relief, or even as an alternative treatment, for worms such as flukes and black ich.

How To Treat - Formalin is very interesting because its potential is not fully known. It is best administered in a bath solution for 30-45 minutes, following the dosage instructions on whatever bottle you use; or at 150 ppm if using "100% formalin" (ex. Formalin-MS). The bath should be done in a large glass bowl or container, and temperature should match the tank the fish is coming from. A bucket is not advised as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. It is imperative that you heavily aerate the bath solution for at least 30 minutes before and also during treatment to compensate for oxygen depletion. The fish should be placed in a premixed bath solution. DO NOT add more formalin after the fish is already in the bath.

For Brooklynella, multiple baths may be required (so long as symptoms persist), but it’s important to give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths. Formalin has also been used as alternative treatment for external worms such as flukes and black ich. However, at least 2 baths are required (7 days apart) for the same reason described when using Prazipro. For all of the above, post treatment, the fish should not be returned to the same tank/water he came from to prevent reinfection.

You can dose formalin directly in a quarantine tank, but this can be risky due to the harshness of formalin and how quickly it can deplete the water of oxygen. Providing additional gas exchange to the QT is a must! A fish being treated must be monitored closely and should be removed if showing signs of distress - this applies when treating in QT or in the bath solution.

Pros - Treats or provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases. In some cases, formalin can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Formalin contains formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Therefore, precautions must be taken when using it. Preventing your skin from coming in contact with it by wearing water proof gloves and not breathing in any fumes by wearing a face mask is highly recommended. Formalin also can be harsh on the fish and will quickly deplete oxygen from the water. In some areas, the purchase of formalin is prohibited.

 

[eeyore357]

The Formalin MS directions are horrible. I tried calling them to get a definite dosing ammount and length of treatment. They didn't return my call. It is 37% formaldehyde so for a long term treatment would it be... 1ml per 10gal. Every other day for 3 treatments?

 

[Humblefish]

eeyore357 Did you see this? Formalin-MS from FishVet, Inc.

 

[eeyore357]

Yes. Unfortunately the bottle I have doesn't have a supplied dropper. I may be over thinking it but a "drop" isn't a uniform measurement. And they say to add it every other day until control is reached but don't say what the final concentration should be. I've seen different dosing instructions like the one above but I don't want to over or under dose. Another one I found said the long term bath should be 15-25ppm if I'm doing my math right that would be around 1.5ml total dose for 20gal. Going by that I suppose a .5ml for 3 doses.
I'm just getting different information about dosing.

 

[Humblefish]

Yes. Unfortunately the bottle I have doesn't have a supplied dropper. I may be over thinking it but a "drop" isn't a uniform measurement. And they say to add it every other day until control is reached but don't say what the final concentration should be. I've seen different dosing instructions like the one above but I don't want to over or under dose. Another one I found said the long term bath should be 15-25ppm if I'm doing my math right that would be around 1.5ml total dose for 20gal. Going by that I suppose a .5ml for 3 doses.
I'm just getting different information about dosing.

Formalin is still effective even when underdosed, so if in doubt you want to do that instead of overdosing. It also doesn't remain in the water for very long, if used to treat an entire QT. So that is why you can add 2 drops per gal every other day without fear of overdosing. For baths, I've always done 20 drops per gal but only treat for 30-45 mins. You can just use an eye dropper like this to measure it:

 

[Humblefish]

The most important thing to remember when using formalin is how quickly it can deplete the water of oxygen. This is main reason why I advocate 30-45 min formalin baths over in-tank treatment. Either way, you'll want powerheads pointing towards the surface of the water or an airstone running full blast if doing the bath. Anything you can do to increase gas exchange to compensate for how quickly the formaldehyde is robbing your water of O2.

 

[eeyore357]

This afternoon when I got home everyone looked much worse. The "raised specks" looked larger and more like ich to me but i still can't see them from the side. It's like they are almost translucent. I decided to try cupramine again, as formalin doesn't sound that great to me. If they get worse I'll get the cupramine out and start formalin or if symptoms return after cupramine.

 

[Humblefish]

Post some recent pics if you can.

 

[eeyore357]

I'll try to get some pics, maybe some HD video. They are breathing slower and I've only seen them scratching a few times. It looks like the copper at .25 is helping.

 

[eeyore357]

Today the spots are basically gone. They are still scratching some but it's better. I went ahead and brought the copper up to around .375 and dosed prazipro. I was thinking about what I can do to be done with this QT. I've read that copper in this concentration is high enough to kill ich. I'm wondering if it's enough for velvet? I was thinking about doing another round of prazipro next week and doing copper for at least 6 weeks. What do you think?

 

[Humblefish]

I was thinking about doing another round of prazipro next week and doing copper for at least 6 weeks. What do you think?

That sounds like a good plan. I think it is likely you are dealing with either ich or flukes in the gills here. The fish would be dead by now if this was velvet.

 

[eeyore357]

I think I'm dealing with a new undiscovered parasite that could eat radioactive waste for breakfast. Lol. We'll get this figured out eventually. Again, thank you for you help and patience.

 

[Humblefish]

I think I'm dealing with a new undiscovered parasite that could eat radioactive waste for breakfast. Lol. We'll get this figured out eventually. Again, thank you for you help and patience.

The "known diseases" we treat for (exs. ich, velvet, gill flukes, etc.) are probably just a fraction of what's really out there.

 

[eeyore357]

The clowns had almost stopped scratching, until today. I tested the copper and added 20 more drops with the new cupramine I got today. I don't know if cupramine can go bad but figured it was worth a try. Also went ahead and redosed Prazipro.
I was reading some past threads and came across one where you suggested at the end of the cupramine treatment to move fish to a new QT tank. I really like that idea but I wouldn't have a cycled tank if I did that. I'm not sure if that would be better than staying in the current QT? I might could get a bottle of Dr Tims if I got another QT....

 

[Humblefish]

What is your copper level reading?

 

[eeyore357]

It was around .4 It should be around .5 now

 

[Humblefish]

It was around .4 It should be around .5 now

If they have ich, the scratching will continue for a couple of weeks even after having been in copper. Because the gills still need to heal from being fed upon by the ich trophonts (think how itchy your skin feels after a sunburn and it starts peeling.)

However looking back over this thread, I have a sneaking suspicion that your clownfish may actually have Brooklynella. Copper will not completely treat brook, but I have seen too many instances now where copper does seem to suppress symptoms for a time.

 

[eeyore357]

Think I should run the copper until the 2nd? That will be 2 weeks at levels above .3 and two rounds of Prazipro. Then water change and carbon for a day and start formalin-ms?

 

[Humblefish]

Think I should run the copper until the 2nd? That will be 2 weeks at levels above .3 and two rounds of Prazipro. Then water change and carbon for a day and start formalin-ms?

How comfortable are you with doing a FW dip? That should provide temporary relief for brook, if this is the case.

 

[eeyore357]

I've never done it, but I guess I can.