New large build - transfer old live rock?

[Om84]

Hey,

I currently have a 2 year old bare bottom SCA 66 g SPS tank that is doing fairly well. I am moving so the opportunity for a new tank arose. I purchased a 260 gallon tank and looking forward to the build. My main problem with current tank is bristleworm infestation and vermetid snails. Neither has had any adverse effect on the health of my corals. Bristleworms are largely in the chaeto and refugium section but sure to be in the display and rocks in the sump. I have not seen any large worms. I do have a melanarus wrasse that may have kept the population under control in display.

Question Is in Addition to the new dry rock for the upcoming build, would you recommend transferring old live rock to the new build? I would like to speed up the cycle but at the same time hate bristleworms and vermetid snails. Or should I just start over?

What would you do?

 

[ariellemermaid]

Hey,

I currently have a 2 year old bare bottom SCA 66 g SPS tank that is doing fairly well. I am moving so the opportunity for a new tank arose. I purchased a 260 gallon tank and looking forward to the build. My main problem with current tank is bristleworm infestation and vermetid snails. Neither has had any adverse effect on the health of my corals. Bristleworms are largely in the chaeto and refugium section but sure to be in the display and rocks in the sump. I have not seen any large worms. I do have a melanarus wrasse that may have kept the population under control in display.

Question Is in Addition to the new dry rock for the upcoming build, would you recommend transferring old live rock to the new build? I would like to speed up the cycle but at the same time hate bristleworms and vermetid snails. Or should I just start over?

What would you do?

I’m in the exact same pickle setting up a new 200g. No bristleworms but my current DT rock has a ton of vermitids.

Following to see what people say. In my case there was always something not quite right about the DT. It killed or almost killed several corals, even a Xenia island struggled for a while. So all it has is a zoa colony, Xenia island, and a small soft coral. My most successful tank is a coral/invert QT that’s been thriving and that’s where the vermitids started. Point is, despite adding very little from my QT and being super careful about pests, I still got a vermitid infestation in the DT.

So by discarding the rock and starting dry it’s a fresh start. But, this experience also leads me to believe it’s impossible to keep these critters out of the tank and the new tank will have them no matter what I do. But, starting clean and dry could delay the problem I suppose rather than seeding from day 1….

 

[G Santana]

It's a double edged sword, use it or lose it.
Firstly, I don't see bristle worms as a problem. They have a specific role they play and if you see their population booming, traps are an easy solution to helping with their numbers.
Vermitid snails are something else, years ago, I had a tank overgrown with them, but as the tank matured their numbers dwindled and were never a problem afterwards.

Part two, you have a stable biological platform in those rocks, they will cycle your new setup relatively quick, think of all the uglies you will bypass because of the rock.

I would use that rock in a heartbeat, it will save you aggravation in the long run. If vermitid and bristle worms are the worst of it, then that's a small price to pay for instant stability.

 

[homer1475]

It's a double edged sword, use it or lose it.
Firstly, I don't see bristle worms as a problem. They have a specific role they play and if you see their population booming, traps are an easy solution to helping with their numbers.
Vermitid snails are something else, years ago, I had a tank overgrown with them, but as the tank matured their numbers dwindled and were never a problem afterwards.

Part two, you have a stable biological platform in those rocks, they will cycle your new setup relatively quick, think of all the uglies you will bypass because of the rock.

I would use that rock in a heartbeat, it will save you aggravation in the long run. If vermitid and bristle worms are the worst of it, then that's a small price to pay for instant stability.

I couldn't agree with this assessment more.

 

[Om84]

great point

I have about 30 lbs of live rock probably. Is that a fair amount to seed immediately a new tank with 100-150 more lbs So that I can transfer livestock? is it still worth it?

 

[homer1475]

If your not increasing your bioload initially, the rocks you have will support the life. They already support the life you currently have, so they would continue to support that life.

 

[Om84]

I will add livestock down the road but yes initially just need to transfer current tank over

 

[Waters]

I personally would see if I could find a few pieces of established rock from another tank that is more or less pest free, and seed the dry rock that way. I would have a hard time bringing anything I didn't want in the old tank, back into the new tank. That said, if you have no other option, reusing some of your old rock is better than starting a dry rock tank without.

 

[Miami Reef]

I would 100% transfer the rocks.

Unless you qt EVERY coral, rock, invert, you’re going to have those same “pests” in your new tank too. And even if you do QT, you’re still having odds against you.

As you’re doing now by keeping the wrasse, keep natural predators and it’ll be fine.

 

[ariellemermaid]

I would 100% transfer the rocks.

Unless you qt EVERY coral, rock, invert, you’re going to have those same “pests” in your new tank too. And even if you do QT, you’re still having odds against you.

As you’re doing now by keeping the wrasse, keep natural predators and it’ll be fine.

In my case I already did that. QT’d every single thing (full 76 days/copper and prazi for fish >30 days). Still got vermitids.

 

[Miami Reef]

In my case I already did that. QT’d every single thing (full 76 days/copper and prazi for fish >30 days). Still got vermitids.

Vermitids comes from coral/inverts/rocks. Not on fish.

How did you QT those things? Did you use a microscope for with several dips throughout the QT process? If not, you’ll most certainly have them.

 

[Just a Wrasse.]

Hey,

I currently have a 2 year old bare bottom SCA 66 g SPS tank that is doing fairly well. I am moving so the opportunity for a new tank arose. I purchased a 260 gallon tank and looking forward to the build. My main problem with current tank is bristleworm infestation and vermetid snails. Neither has had any adverse effect on the health of my corals. Bristleworms are largely in the chaeto and refugium section but sure to be in the display and rocks in the sump. I have not seen any large worms. I do have a melanarus wrasse that may have kept the population under control in display.

Question Is in Addition to the new dry rock for the upcoming build, would you recommend transferring old live rock to the new build? I would like to speed up the cycle but at the same time hate bristleworms and vermetid snails. Or should I just start over?

What would you do?

I'd say fresh start.

 

[Just a Wrasse.]

I’m in the exact same pickle setting up a new 200g. No bristleworms but my current DT rock has a ton of vermitids.

Following to see what people say. In my case there was always something not quite right about the DT. It killed or almost killed several corals, even a Xenia island struggled for a while. So all it has is a zoa colony, Xenia island, and a small soft coral. My most successful tank is a coral/invert QT that’s been thriving and that’s where the vermitids started. Point is, despite adding very little from my QT and being super careful about pests, I still got a vermitid infestation in the DT.

So by discarding the rock and starting dry it’s a fresh start. But, this experience also leads me to believe it’s impossible to keep these critters out of the tank and the new tank will have them no matter what I do. But, starting clean and dry could delay the problem I suppose rather than seeding from day 1….

I like the fresh start idea. It's also fun as who doesn't love aquascaping?

 

[ariellemermaid]

Vermitids comes from coral/inverts/rocks. Not on fish.

How did you QT those things? Did you use a microscope for with several dips throughout the QT process? If not, you’ll most certainly have them.

I’m aware of that just emphasizing how OCD I am about QT generally. Yes to dips and careful inspection, but I don’t see the role for a microscope unless you have something to put under it in which case you’ve already seen it. I have had aiptasia which I’ve managed to keep out of the DT and I’m working on some MEN right now. Definitely never put a frag in that had a visible vermitid shell on it.

 

[Pistondog]

Hey,

I currently have a 2 year old bare bottom SCA 66 g SPS tank that is doing fairly well. I am moving so the opportunity for a new tank arose. I purchased a 260 gallon tank and looking forward to the build. My main problem with current tank is bristleworm infestation and vermetid snails. Neither has had any adverse effect on the health of my corals. Bristleworms are largely in the chaeto and refugium section but sure to be in the display and rocks in the sump. I have not seen any large worms. I do have a melanarus wrasse that may have kept the population under control in display.

Question Is in Addition to the new dry rock for the upcoming build, would you recommend transferring old live rock to the new build? I would like to speed up the cycle but at the same time hate bristleworms and vermetid snails. Or should I just start over?

What would you do?

Either transfer old live rock or buy some new live rock.

 

[homer1475]

And those that QT everything.... struggle the most.

The ocean don't QT anything, and everything in the ocean has a natural predator(except us, and the pollution we spew into the ocean). It's called biodiversity, and the reason those that QT everything struggle the most.

QT fish for disease, sure, QT corals for the occasinal hitchiker, sure, but some people take it to extremes and don't even want the most common of CUC the bristle worm, those are the people that never make it in this hobby for very long. Sometimes you have to embraces the "ugly" things we really don't like the look of.

 

[ariellemermaid]

And those that QT everything.... struggle the most.

The ocean don't QT anything, and everything in the ocean has a natural predator(except us, and the pollution we spew into the ocean). It's called biodiversity, and the reason those that QT everything struggle the most.

QT fish for disease, sure, QT corals for the occasinal hitchiker, sure, but some people take it to extremes and don't even want the most common of CUC the bristle worm, those are the people that never make it in this hobby for very long. Sometimes you have to embraces the "ugly" things we really don't like the look of.

I have to disagree with this logic. While the premise- biodiversity is good- is generally true, the reality is that you can’t even vaguely compare the biodiversity in 10’s to 100’s of gallons of water to the vastness of the ocean. It’s why a good portion of reefing is dealing with with pests, and I would argue FAR more people leave the hobby because of not quarantining than because of it. It’s easy to understand while you watch thousands of dollars and years of time get wiped out in days or weeks.

I’m not sure if you’re for QT or against it because you’re arguing both directions at the same time. You agree to QT for fish diseases and coral pests but then rail against too much QT. The problem is, fish disease and coral pests are only reason to QT in the first place, that’s the entire reason we do it! Vermitids and certain types of bristleworms (fireworms) are just that- coral pests! And can also be unsightly in plague portions.

I agree with you that some bristleworms are a beneficial part of the CUC and aren’t something to worry about. However… back to biodiversity. I’ve never seen one on a natural reef and I’ve never seen rocks covered in vermitids to the point of pushing out corals. That’s because we can’t come close to the biodiversity in the ocean. We don’t have an entire food chain of things that eat things that eat things that eat things. So certain critters that exist in nature just don’t have the same natural check and balance in a few hundred gallons of water (or less) to control their numbers. We don’t see plagues of ich or velvet wiping out all the fish on a reef either. It’s just an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[homer1475]

I'm not against QTing, but I do not do it myself. Honestly I've been in the hobby for close to 30 years. I only recently stopped QTing everything to the extreme. My tank has never looked better, and my fish have never been healthier.

And before anyone rips me apart about loosing thousands to ich or velevet, been there done that a couple times. I still believe in letting the fish's immune system fight it out.

Kind of like how scientists say the reason kids have so many allergies these days is because we try to inoculate against everything and the immune system doesn't know what to so, so it attacks the body with all sorts of weird allergies.

Its the extreme QTing I'm against. It's the people that freak out at the occasional bristle worm, aiptasia, or vermetid snail are the ones I was aiming my post at.

 

[ariellemermaid]

I'm not against QTing, but I do not do it myself. Honestly I've been in the hobby for close to 30 years. I only recently stopped QTing everything to the extreme. My tank has never looked better, and my fish have never been healthier.

And before anyone rips me apart about loosing thousands to ich or velevet, been there done that a couple times. I still believe in letting the fish's immune system fight it out.

Kind of like how scientists say the reason kids have so many allergies these days is because we try to inoculate against everything and the immune system doesn't know what to so, so it attacks the body with all sorts of weird allergies.

Its the extreme QTing I'm against. It's the people that freak out at the occasional bristle worm, aiptasia, or vermetid snail are the ones I was aiming my post at.

Interesting you’ve come full circle on QT! We’re not so far apart, but personally I’d rather keep aiptasia out. Tiny frags of nice corals just cost too much. I wouldn’t mind a few vermitids but I’d rather have open corals than webs all over the tank.

You’re not wrong on theories relating to allergies/asthma. However when it comes to disease, immunity isn’t everything. One example would be travelers diarrhea. It’s caused by the same bugs you’re exposed to every day at home, but just slightly different genetics in different places and in different amounts. A better example though is that disease exposure matters a lot. Ecoli is present in drinking water but in very low numbers. That’s fine because it takes exposure to a certain number of bacterial cells to get food poisoning. Drink enough ecoli however, and you’re going to have a problem.

Likewise, fish rarely have problems in the ocean because of dilution. They have the same immunity they had before when they get to our tanks, yet get infected because of concentration of disease like swimming in a sewer. So it’s not really immunity driving the difference. For new stressed fish to a degree sure, but not the existing ones that get wiped out too. That’s the philosophy I believe in anyway.

Not knocking your approach at all; many ways to do reefing and many ways to be successful. We also don’t know about your full ich management setup (UV sterilizers, etc.). Just throwing that out there as food for thought to others. Nothing can chase a new marine aquarist out of the hobby faster than spending a few hundred on fish and watching them all die. And I’ve definitely seen threads where people gave up on the hobby because of aiptasia they just could never control that took over the tank. It’s hard psychologically to start over from scratch when things get out of control, no matter the pest.

 

[homer1475]

Nothing can chase a new marine aquarist out of the hobby faster than spending a few hundred on fish and watching them all die. And I’ve definitely seen threads where people gave up on the hobby because of aiptasia they just could never control that took over the tank. It’s hard psychologically to start over from scratch when things get out of control, no matter the pest.

With this I would agree with you 100%

But the daunting task of running multiple QT tanks, can also chase many new aquarists(sp?) out of the hobby as well.

Many different ways to reef, choosing what works for you is the hardest part.