Nh3 increasing- help, what is happening?

[Magostini]

Hello all, I would like to ask your support, I did everything I know but I am not able to understand what is happening.

My tank was set up 102 days ago. It was cycled, I added the fish about 20 days from beggining and put the corals turning the lights on 60 days from the beginning. I am testing a lot and I use seneye to monitor NH3...and here is the issue..

After cycling, nh3 was always 0.001 ppm...sometimes going to 0.002 and 0.003, but then going back to 0.001. About 20 days ago, I dosed nopox to reduce nitrate and phosphate. I did it for no more than 1 week, and suddenly the nh3 started to increase. I stop dosing nopox, but since then nh3 starts to increase...And now the following is happening on a daily basis:
In the morning nh3 is 0.008...starts to raise at night achieving 0.018...when this happens, I use nitribiotic and nh3 starts to reduce very fast until 0.005 ppm. But then in the morning is 0.008 and starting to grow. I am trying to understand, and I would like to share some potential causes and some questions I have. Starting with the questions:

- Is it normal this nh3 increases? What is the limit I can handle without bacteria?

About the causes:
- Is this caused by the fish that are growing increasing ammonia? Should I take some of them out?
- Is it a normal phase and it is going to stop? So nothing to do here?
- Should I add more substrate or change bio media?
- Maybe the UV is killing some bacteria?
- The chaeto is getting almost all phosphate and the bacteria does not have enough to live? In this case should I take chaeto out?

Below the description of tank, equipments, fish and test results
Tank + sump 100 gal
Substrate 1 inch
Skimmer reef octopus 200 classic int
Bio media siporax and brightwell brick
Uv Filter
A few chaeto in the sump
One blue tang
One yellow eye tang
One purple tang
2 clowns
1 yellow coris
1 dottyback
1 file fish

 

[Magostini]

Adding photos

 

[Azedenkae]

There are two causes I can think of.
1. Your setup seems to be very light on live rock. How much biomedia do you have, including rocks, sand, siporax, and brightwell brick? Perhaps there's not enough biomedia to house enough nitrifiers to handle all the ammonia produced.
2. Your cycling method may not have produced as much ammonia oxidizers as hoped for, and their reproduction is still catching up.

Firstly though, I would not fret too much. Even 0.018 is so low that it is largely inconsequential. This study: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10499-015-9965-9 suggests that so long as ammonia is kept under 0.57 mg/l NH3-N, that's not enough ammonia to harm ocellaris clownfish (long term), and I presume similar concentrations apply to other marine fish too.

As for my actual hypothesis, I believe that it is possible every time you are dosing nitrifiers, they are in the water and are able to quickly oxidize ammonia present there, but yes, the UV light probably kills them off and thus ammonia climbs a bit again. Meanwhile, either ammonia oxidizers in the rock are still reproducing and will eventually be able to handle the ammonia, or more worryingly, there's not enough live rock to actually handle it. Which means that long term it may be a concern. I am terrible at estimating how much live rock there is though, so that's why I have to ask for actual amounts. Sorry. XD

As for the potential correlation between dosing nopox and why ammonia was not rising during that time, could just be that you were happening to feed heterotrophic nitrifiers.

 

[Magostini]

Thank you! Reading your comment I am thinking if the problem is the lack of aerobic bacteria. Reading brightwell instructions for aerobic process in order to attack nh3 they recommend to use the brick above water line. Mine is below and this is the explanation for low nitrate....maybe anaerobic process is fine but aerobic it is not....I don know about siporax...

 

[Magostini]

Hey all quick update....I took some actions:
- water change - 20%
- added one caribsea rock (see below up in the left)
- added one brightwell brick above water sump (see below) to get more aerobic bacteria
- took out the chaeto that was melting....I think this was also increasing nh3
- added nitribiotic

As a result the nh3 came from 0.029 to 0.002 ppm...but after 12 hours started to increase again..now it is 0.014ppm

All the parameters seem fine, the only exception is magnesium at 1680 ppm...(I had an error in dosing pump).

Any idea on whats happening?

I will copy here @brandon429 , who has always excellent analysis!

Thank you!

 

[Azedenkae]

Hey all quick update....I took some actions:
- water change - 20%
- added one caribsea rock (see below up in the left)
- added one brightwell brick above water sump (see below) to get more aerobic bacteria
- took out the chaeto that was melting....I think this was also increasing nh3
- added nitribiotic

As a result the nh3 came from 0.029 to 0.002 ppm...but after 12 hours started to increase again..now it is 0.014ppm

All the parameters seem fine, the only exception is magnesium at 1680 ppm...(I had an error in dosing pump).

Any idea on whats happening?

I will copy here @brandon429 , who has always excellent analysis!

Thank you!

If you just leave it be without doing anything else, like not even dosing Nitribiotic, does ammonia ever climb past a certain point?

I feel like this is really not that big a deal and I am not even sure you need to even make any changes. If ammonia climbs to a certain extent and then never stops rising beyond that, and if that point is well within safe limits, then imo you should stop being too concerned about it.

 

[Magostini]

If you just leave it be without doing anything else, like not even dosing Nitribiotic, does ammonia ever climb past a certain point?

I feel like this is really not that big a deal and I am not even sure you need to even make any changes. If ammonia climbs to a certain extent and then never stops rising beyond that, and if that point is well within safe limits, then imo you should stop being too concerned about it.

I was thinking about that....just wait a bit more and see the peak value...but maybe the limit for that should be 0.050 of NH3...

 

[Azedenkae]

I was thinking about that....just wait a bit more and see the peak value...but maybe the limit for that should be 0.050 of NH3...

The limit for ocellaris clownfish is 0.57: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10499-015-9965-9, which I presume is also a ballpark figure that may be applicable for other fish. So even at the peak you've measured, you're still far from having to worry. ^_^

 

[Magostini]

The limit for ocellaris clownfish is 0.57: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10499-015-9965-9, which I presume is also a ballpark figure that may be applicable for other fish. So even at the peak you've measured, you're still far from having to worry. ^_^

Thanks, Im sorry, you had mentioned this before....noted...lets see what happens..thank you

 

[takitaj]

You have a few fish in there producing ammonia so naturally there is going to be trace amounts detected in the water. It may be a little early for Chaeto too but that's another topic.

Ammonia goes down at night when the fish are respirating less so your bio filter catches up. It goes up during the day because fish are active and therefore respirating more, eating, etc. and producing more ammonia. Eventually the bio filter will increase and ammonia will increase less and less as the bio bacteria reproduce more.

Most likely you will always see some tiny amount of ammonia in the water. My rule of thumb has always been to keep it under 0.25ppm. Azedenkae cited a paper above on Occelaris that shows double that. You're far, far from there! No need to worry.

By adding additional ammonia reducing agents your retarding the growth of the bio filter by sucking nh3 out of the water column before the bio filter can get it, so stop adding and let nature go to work and your tank to mature. The numbers you are seeing are minuscule but are required to make everything work as it's supposed to. It will all balance out.

Just monitor for the next week, not adding anything extra, and report back here even if for posterity.

 

[Magostini]

You have a few fish in there producing ammonia so naturally there is going to be trace amounts detected in the water. It may be a little early for Chaeto too but that's another topic.

Ammonia goes down at night when the fish are respirating less so your bio filter catches up. It goes up during the day because fish are active and therefore respirating more, eating, etc. and producing more ammonia. Eventually the bio filter will increase and ammonia will increase less and less as the bio bacteria reproduce more.

Most likely you will always see some tiny amount of ammonia in the water. My rule of thumb has always been to keep it under 0.25ppm. Azedenkae cited a paper above on Occelaris that shows double that. You're far, far from there! No need to worry.

By adding additional ammonia reducing agents your retarding the growth of the bio filter by sucking nh3 out of the water column before the bio filter can get it, so stop adding and let nature go to work and your tank to mature. The numbers you are seeing are minuscule but are required to make everything work as it's supposed to. It will all balance out.

Just monitor for the next week, not adding anything extra, and report back here even if for posterity.

Thank you, @takitaj I will do that

 

[Magostini]

Hello all, hey @takitaj , it is only four days, but I already have some interesting news.....
Sunday night before all messages, I had added nitrobiotic and nh3 achieved 0.003 ppm,but after that I quit additional bacteria as you recommended.
In the first day the max achieved at night was 0.013 ppm.
In the second day max again at night achieved 0.023 ppm. So increasing at the same rate 0.010 per day.
In the third day max at night 0.029 ppm indicating a reduction in the rate.
Now in the fourth day the max was 0.026ppm, so it seems that the bio team in the tank was finally able to reduce the amount of nh3...
I will monitor and share the other results...
Best

 

[takitaj]

Way to go!

 

[Magostini]

Hello all, an update here:
In the fifth day the max was 0.024, the sixth (yesterday) 0.020 and today 0.014 ppm.
Apparently the speed of bacteria is increasing....It is now 7 days without any type of new bacteria.
In the other hand I noticed nitrate and phosphate increasing. When nh3 started to raise, nitrate was 2 ppm and now it is 10 ppm. Phosphate was 0.02 and now 0.08.
I will continue to monitor nh3, this is the priority and I will work like a little recycling.
But just sharing some thoughts: nh3 started to raise just after chaeto started to die. And this happened just after I started to dose nopox....My view on that:
When I started to dose nopox I reduced phosphate and nitrate and chaeto died without food. When chaeto died, released nh3 and the tank was not prepared to deal with nh3 because the chaeto was not there anymore. Besides without phosphate there was no fuel for aerobic bacteria to deal with nh3.
Your recommendation (special thanks to @takitaj and @Azedenkae ) was very important because at the moment I let nh3 to grow waiting for the bacteria to reproduce, I prepared the tank to build up the team to deal with nh3 properly.
Following lessons learnt to reduce phosphate and nitrate a little bit, I will not use chaeto or nopox, I will use the no3 and po4 media from brightwell to reduce the amount I need and then take them out in order to keep the balance...
Any different thoughts? I will continue to share the results.
Thank you!