No Algae? How Is This Possible?

[Duraticate]

So far the longest time i had hair algae. In my 29 gal i told people i was growing grass. Eventually the hair algae went away took bout 1 year. Nitrates at times were over 200ppm. After the 29 i moved up to a 60gal. At first for 3-6 months i had hair algae nitrates around 60-80ppm sometimes over 100ppm. At some point i had a heater failure which cooked my tank at 85 or higher for months. Neber lost any corals or fish but my algae went away. Fixed my heater and some hair algae came back. I started dosing cal for a little bit. Then all of a sudden cal spike off the chart. My coraline algae growth exploded took over my tank. Any bad algae could not compete with the amount of coraline i had. The coraline got bad enough that my corals were not looking happy. Bout a month ago i scrape 95% of the coraline off. What i am trying to get at is there is a balance. At some point one algae out grew everything. I dose cal when needed now and nothing more. My perameters are still a little high but stable. I have been in the 60 gal now for almost 2 years. Just got a new light last week. Lets hope for the best.

 

[Duraticate]

So far the longest time i had hair algae. In my 29 gal i told people i was growing grass. Eventually the hair algae went away took bout 1 year. Nitrates at times were over 200ppm. After the 29 i moved up to a 60gal. At first for 3-6 months i had hair algae nitrates around 60-80ppm sometimes over 100ppm. At some point i had a heater failure which cooked my tank at 85 or higher for months. Neber lost any corals or fish but my algae went away. Fixed my heater and some hair algae came back. I started dosing cal for a little bit. Then all of a sudden cal spike off the chart. My coraline algae growth exploded took over my tank. Any bad algae could not compete with the amount of coraline i had. The coraline got bad enough that my corals were not looking happy. Bout a month ago i scrape 95% of the coraline off. What i am trying to get at is there is a balance. At some point one algae out grew everything. I dose cal when needed now and nothing more. My perameters are still a little high but stable. I have been in the 60 gal now for almost 2 years. Just got a new light last week. Lets hope for the best.

 

[Duraticate]

So far the longest time i had hair algae. In my 29 gal i told people i was growing grass. Eventually the hair algae went away took bout 1 year. Nitrates at times were over 200ppm. After the 29 i moved up to a 60gal. At first for 3-6 months i had hair algae nitrates around 60-80ppm sometimes over 100ppm. At some point i had a heater failure which cooked my tank at 85 or higher for months. Neber lost any corals or fish but my algae went away. Fixed my heater and some hair algae came back. I started dosing cal for a little bit. Then all of a sudden cal spike off the chart. My coraline algae growth exploded took over my tank. Any bad algae could not compete with the amount of coraline i had. The coraline got bad enough that my corals were not looking happy. Bout a month ago i scrape 95% of the coraline off. What i am trying to get at is there is a balance. At some point one algae out grew everything. I dose cal when needed now and nothing more. My perameters are still a little high but stable. I have been in the 60 gal now for almost 2 years. Just got a new light last week. Lets hope for the best.

 

[Rob Romalino]

Following

 

[sundog101]

All the ATS does is allow the algae to grow in a pre determined place. This also allows me to keep my water full of nutrients.

That's what I don't quite understand with ATS/refugiums. The ATS/refugium should outcompete the algae in the display, thus lowering nutrients. But if nutrients are high, it's not really outcompeting it.

 

[mcarroll]

Since the refugium is "a tank apart" it's at a technical disadvantage to the algae growing "at or near the source".

 

[Archcello]

That's what I don't quite understand with ATS/refugiums. The ATS/refugium should outcompete the algae in the display, thus lowering nutrients. But if nutrients are high, it's not really outcompeting it.

So, an ATS uses the excess nutrients that usually create an algae bloom while allowing the coral to use an appropriate amount without trying to compete with algae growing all around and over them.

 

[Cory]

The thing about an ats is it causes limitation so tank algae doesnt grow. This could be iron, po4, no3 etcetera

 

[sundog101]

The article also states that the first step to nutrient uptake is diffusion.

If that is correct the concentration of nutrients inside the cells could not exceed the concentration in the water right?

 

[mcarroll]

Not all cells are equally capable of acquiring nutrients. Nor are they equal at storing then.

 

[sundog101]

Alright I've been doing some more research and it seems as if algae goes into a type of survival mode in very nutrient limited environments. I think this may be whats happening in my tank. According to the article nutrient uptake rates can be greatly influence by past water conditions (concentration of N and P). When the algae are starved, they try to get much nutrients as fast as possible.

What I've seen in my tank (all with undetectable nutrients):
-Very low level nutrients
-Algae starts to grow
-Add more nutrient export
-Algae dies back
-Slowly increase feedings/less nutrient export
-Algae starts to grow
-More nutrient export
-Algae dies back
You see the pattern. Now I know some algae is ok and I'm not out to totally eliminate algae from my tank. However, its more than I would like and feel its more than normal.

So here's what I'm going to try. I'll increase feeding and get some algae going. Then just keep levels stable and see if the algae will "relax" in a way and realize that its not in a starved environment. Hopefully things will balance out and uptake won't be so fast.

 

[mcarroll]

@sundog101 you're trying to encourage succession....not easy cuz everything wants to live – espeically what's already established.

Reducing overall nutrient levels (not the same as cutting back feeding....might equate to removing some livestock) could help.

Do you already have your own thread specifically for troubleshooting your tank where you have some history posted and some photos?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The article also states that the first step to nutrient uptake is diffusion.

If that is correct the concentration of nutrients inside the cells could not exceed the concentration in the water right?

Which article? I'd be surprised it uptake is passive. Also, neither nitrate nor phosphate is stored inside of cells in significant quantities in those forms.

 

[bif24701]

I'm no master. In fact until recently my tank would bloom every week with enormous amounts of algae. Every time I did a test, I was getting all parameters normal. I finally added a home made ATS to the back of my nano tank and boom, algae blooms gone. All the ATS does is allow the algae to grow in a pre determined place. This also allows me to keep my water full of nutrients. I'm finally seeing great growth in my corals for the first time.

This is my new fuge, 40 gallon with cheato and a super powered grow light. I grow a lot of stuff in there. Pods, cheato, film algae, Dino, coralline algae, and my display stays nice and clean.

I just replace the old 40 that was a sump once with a small fuge area, this one is 2x the size.

 

[sundog101]

Which article? I'd be surprised it uptake is passive. Also, neither nitrate nor phosphate is stored inside of cells in significant quantities in those forms.

Here is the article
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2293-Nutrients-in-the-Biscayne-Bay-of-Miami

Ah, re-read that section and see that it says diffusion takes place across a boundary layer, not the cell membrane.
"Three processes are involved in the acquisition of nutrients by macroalgae (Hanisak 1983):
1) diffusion of nutrients across the boundary layer adjacent to the plant surface (Borchart 1996; Mann and Lazier 1996);
2) uptake across the cell membrane (Harrison 1988; Vymazal 1995);
3) assimilation into cellular constituents and active metabolism (Lobban and Harrison 1994; Vymazal 1995; Borchart 1996).
Active uptake across the cell membrane is generally described by a rectangular hyperbolic function, analogous to the Michaelis-Menten equation of enzyme kinetics (Dugdale 1967; Stewart 1974; Auer and Canle 1982; Harrison 1988)."

 

[sundog101]

@sundog101 you're trying to encourage succession....not easy cuz everything wants to live – espeically what's already established.

Reducing overall nutrient levels (not the same as cutting back feeding....might equate to removing some livestock) could help.

Do you already have your own thread specifically for troubleshooting your tank where you have some history posted and some photos?

I assume succession requires a pretty stable environment. Do you think some tanks can get reset in a way? Then process starts back over?

I do have another thread on here. I was just using this one for a more general algae/nutrient dicussion.
The other thread with more specifics: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/leftover-nutrients.305882/

 

[Flippers4pups]

I have little nuisance algae growing in my system, a little in the overflow boxes from time to time.

I believe that in my circumstance a balance of in take and up take is what I have achieved due to more water volume than the DT and feeding once a day.

The water chemistry I keep is consistent with keeping SPS and I maintain that vigorously. I dose alkalinity every other day and dose AA's and trace elements weekly. I also use kalkwasser in my ATO.

Husbandry wise I'm spot on with water changes once a week and using a RO/DI unit that is maintained to keep it producing quality water.

Lightning is LED and is heavy in blue spectrum. 8 hours white/blues and 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour at night blues.

Why I don't have an algae issue and never had one since starting this system? Balance.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here is the article
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2293-Nutrients-in-the-Biscayne-Bay-of-Miami

Ah, re-read that section and see that it says diffusion takes place across a boundary layer, not the cell membrane.
"Three processes are involved in the acquisition of nutrients by macroalgae (Hanisak 1983):
1) diffusion of nutrients across the boundary layer adjacent to the plant surface (Borchart 1996; Mann and Lazier 1996);
2) uptake across the cell membrane (Harrison 1988; Vymazal 1995);
3) assimilation into cellular constituents and active metabolism (Lobban and Harrison 1994; Vymazal 1995; Borchart 1996).
Active uptake across the cell membrane is generally described by a rectangular hyperbolic function, analogous to the Michaelis-Menten equation of enzyme kinetics (Dugdale 1967; Stewart 1974; Auer and Canle 1982; Harrison 1988)."

OK, they are talking about diffusion to the cells, then active uptake by the cells, which is what I expect. Thanks.

 

[curiouser]

What is the "right" amount of visible algae in a reef tank? If we are scraping it off the glass and rest of tank looks clean and good and corals are doing well is that the right amount of algae? How about if there are also small amounts of algae (thin looking coating) on the rocks which the yellow tang seems to be enjoying? I assume the hermits and snails are also enjoying. I've seen some pics of natural reefs with what I think are small amounts of algae.
Do we go too far sometimes with carbon dosing or Vibrant trying to make the rocks look pristine?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is the "right" amount of visible algae in a reef tank? If we are scraping it off the glass and rest of tank looks clean and good and corals are doing well is that the right amount of algae? How about if there are also small amounts of algae (thin looking coating) on the rocks which the yellow tang seems to be enjoying? I assume the hermits and snails are also enjoying. I've seen some pics of natural reefs with what I think are small amounts of algae.
Do we go too far sometimes with carbon dosing or Vibrant trying to make the rocks look pristine?

My tank always had some types of algae, and also cyano. I had a foxface that would eat most anything (except cyano), however, so only cyano remained in the display.