NO3-PO4 Imbalance in Nano Reef....help pls

[Gator_Reefer]

Main Question: Do I now need to regularly dose Nitrates to reach a proper Nitrate-Phosphate balance, or is it possible my tank will reach a naturally sustained balance...eventually?

(Background)
So have a slightly over 3 month old nano reef (6 gal) that has had pretty decent water parameters so far. Nitrates recently dropped down to undetectable (<0.25 ppm) on my Red Sea pro kit, but interestingly my Phosphates, which were previously in the 0.02-0.03 ppm range, have shot up to 0.90 ppm on my Hanna checker. Really scared of creating a perfect environment for Dinos and Cyano to go crazy.

From my research over the last several days, I've come to understand this can be a somewhat expected behavior when the tank becomes "nitrate-limited" and the biological reduction of the PO4 slows down to almost a standstill.

For chemical filtration, I have been running two small (4"x3") stacked pads of Filter Floss and two ChemiPure Blue Nano packets in the HOB filter's media basket. I understand this may be overkill and can risk an unintentional overstripping of nutrients, but since I don't have room for a skimmer or a fuge, I had felt comfortable with this to help with nutrient export control. I also perform ~15-20% weekly w/c's.

What I've done in the last few days to attempt to remedy the NO3-PO4 imbalance is I've temporarily removed the two CP Blue packets and have dosed the tank with a single 0.25 ml dose of Seachem Flourish Nitrogen (used this mainly b/c I already had it). Depending on NO3 test reading, planning on dosing same amount again tonight.

In addition to main question above, I'm wondering if the CP Blue will further strip my undetectable NO3 levels, or should I should add it back temporarily to help with bringing down the elevated PO4?


Any insight appreciated as usual...thanks!

 

[Gator_Reefer]

Just tested my NO3 and PO4, they are at 0.25ppm and 0.90ppm, respectively.

Looks like the combination of Florish Nitrogen and removing the CP Blue is helping the NO3 come up a little, however the PO4 is same as last night....at least it didnt continue rising.

 

[Gator_Reefer]

Anyone?

 

[LetItReef]

Have a similar issue- P is 0.94 using Hanna & N 10 using Salifert
Could be that I added couple dry rocks and I feed heavy. I am slowly dosing Phosphate E to get my P under control and now at 0.19.

 

[Gator_Reefer]

Have a similar issue- P is 0.94 using Hanna & N 10 using Salifert
Could be that I added couple dry rocks and I feed heavy. I am slowly dosing Phosphate E to get my P under control and now at 0.19.

Interesting, although at least your PO4 to NO3 ratio is more in line with natural seawater or Redfield (16 NO3 : 1 PO4).

Havent looked up Phosphate E, will look into that. Have u tried any phosphate removal media like GFO or Aluminum Oxide prior to dosing the Phos E?

 

[rhastareefer]

My tank is similar but I had zero nitrates the first 6 to 10 months it was running. Once I started dosing Loudwolf Sodium Nitrate things improved steadily. I still dose it daily and the tank is over 3 years old. I used to use a chaeto reactor to control po4. Now I just use nopox and still dosing Loudwolf Sodium Nitrate to maintain balance. I shoot for 10 to 20 no3 and .03 to .1 po4 (I try to keep them balanced whether they're on the high side or the low side, the balance is more important than the actual numbers, took me a while to figure that out).

Keep in mind, a newer tank (less than 1 to 1.5 years old) should keep nutrients on the LOW side with minimal feeding.

 

[LetItReef]

Interesting, although at least your PO4 to NO3 ratio is more in line with natural seawater or Redfield (16 NO3 : 1 PO4).

Havent looked up Phosphate E, will look into that. Have u tried any phosphate removal media like GFO or Aluminum Oxide prior to dosing the Phos E?

I did try GFO in my previous tank using a reactor and one of my Euphyllia melted even I added less of its recommended amount.
Phos E works best for me, I can dose a small amount 1ml-2ml in a week.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Why exactly are you chasing these numbers?

Fwiw , no3 and Po4 numbers are different depending where you test the water in the ocean.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Find a range that works for both based on your tanks photosynthetic bio mass ie lots of large corals 25ppm nitrate isnt an issue. A hand full of frags algae is probably going to outcompete those. Phosphate generally speaking under .1 and detectable is often fine around .3 hard corals begin to stress.

Imo diversity is the major limiting factor for dinos. If you have a healthy population of other eukaryotes that will predate them , and provide an environment where nutrients do not hit zero. You will not get dinos.

Cyano is a bit more complex situation there are a lot of situations cyano can take a foothold. Allowing detritus buildup being the most common.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579

 

[Gator_Reefer]

I did try GFO in my previous tank using a reactor and one of my Euphyllia melted even I added less of its recommended amount.
Phos E works best for me, I can dose a small amount 1ml-2ml in a week.

Thanks for that heads up, will keep an eye out if I decide to try GFO. You think it was the rapid reduction in PO4 that caused the issue, or something else?

 

[Gator_Reefer]

Why exactly are you chasing these numbers?

Fwiw , no3 and Po4 numbers are different depending where you test the water in the ocean.

Im not “chasing” any specific numbers, but I am trying to be conscious of excessively elevated levels, especially since I have a present imbalance by having higher PO4 to NO3.

Fully aware NO3 and PO4 can vary somewhat naturally in the ocean...my point was in reference to the 16:1 (Nitrogen to Phosphorus) Redfield ratio that is found in all marine environments.

 

[Gator_Reefer]

Find a range that works for both based on your tanks photosynthetic bio mass ie lots of large corals 25ppm nitrate isnt an issue. A hand full of frags algae is probably going to outcompete those. Phosphate generally speaking under .1 and detectable is often fine around .3 hard corals begin to stress.

Imo diversity is the major limiting factor for dinos. If you have a healthy population of other eukaryotes that will predate them , and provide an environment where nutrients do not hit zero. You will not get dinos.

Cyano is a bit more complex situation there are a lot of situations cyano can take a foothold. Allowing detritus buildup being the most common.

Thanks for the insight!

Have to admit I had to google what Eukaryotes are. So you are referring to ensuring there are other algaes present to outcompete the Dinos?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Im not “chasing” any specific numbers, but I am trying to be conscious of excessively elevated levels, especially since I have a present imbalance by having higher PO4 to NO3.

Fully aware NO3 and PO4 can vary somewhat naturally in the ocean...my point was in reference to the 16:1 (Nitrogen to Phosphorus) Redfield ratio that is found in all marine environments.

It’s not found in all marine environments at that ratio. Nor do all organisms consume them that that rate.

The imbalance of available nutrients has nothing to do with uptake or the presence of anything. It’s an anecdotal myth.


Or this guy would be in big trouble.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579
He did manage to get his Po4 down a bit from 3.0.

 

[Gator_Reefer]

It’s not found in all marine environments at that ratio. Nor do all organisms consume them that that rate.

The imbalance of available nutrients has nothing to do with uptake or the presence of anything. It’s an anecdotal myth.


Or this guy would be in big trouble.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579
He did manage to get his Po4 down a bit from 3.0.

Interesting, but I will note and emphasize his NO3 are significantly higher than his PO4, and that’s the ratio or balance I refer to. The opposite being my case where PO4 are way higher than NO3, and from what I’ve read I believe there can be negative consequences from that type of imbalance.

Ultimately, I’ll agree there are many different theories on proper nutrient levels and ratios, and not all hold true depending on the individual tank. The somewhat still developing “science” behind what makes a healthy reef tank ecosystem is a large driver for my passion and fascination for this hobby.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Interesting, but I will note and emphasize his NO3 are significantly higher than his PO4, and that’s the ratio or balance I refer to. The opposite being my case where PO4 are way higher than NO3, and from what I’ve read I believe there can be negative consequences from that type of imbalance.

Ultimately, I’ll agree there are many different theories on proper nutrient levels and ratios, and not all hold true depending on the individual tank. The somewhat still developing “science” behind what makes a healthy reef tank ecosystem is a large driver for my passion and fascination for this hobby.

Well, he is actually a marine biologist at the stein heart and a macna aquarist of the year and he thinks the ratio thing myth your talking about that one has to keep in a tank at home is bunk.

The developing Redfield
ratio “ science” is about 80 years old. And the Berlin method we all use is about 5o+.

THe reason it works so differently from tank to tank at so many different ratios and nutrients levels is because it doesn’t really matter.