Non-ammonia cycling progress

[tarmer]

Good Day -
There are literally tons of posts here about cycling and various cycling methods and there is an equal amount of opinions about this…. What I wanted to inquire about is the possibility of a cycle happening without ammonia source as follows below:

Let me preface this by I am in no hurry nor do I believe there is a magic solution to it but there may be options that are possible

I started the tank 1 week ago ( it is a 20 gallon tall) I used the caribsea ocean direct ( it was in a wet bag when opened) and the caribsea life rock - Not wanting to get into a debate over live or not with either as this is also subjective to the responder. I turned filter (hob) and light (aqua illumination blade) on and let it run a few days. I added a bottle of dr tims one and only and have done nothing more….

About two days ago I stated noticing diatoms (which is fine) growing in sand and rocks… I decided to test water to get baseline - Now I am using an API kit at the moment. I know they do not have a great reputation but I have used before and they do get you somewhere in the ballpark to see what you have.

My ammonia looked to be around 0 as did my nitrite - I also tested nitate to see if that had any reading and based on color and accuracy of test I would say it is not 0 but also not high - I have attached photos of all 3 tests as well as diatom photo

So the long winded question becomes - I understand that diatoms do not indicate a complete cycle as they can occur at differing times - But is it possible to have this tank cycle without adding anything further for breakdown- OR is it more likely that everything is 0 because there is nothing for bacteria to breakdown and raise the numbers

I do not believe this tank is cycled in any way but do want to make sure it is going to as i have described

TIA

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

the Dr Tims added bacteria and possibly some nutrients.

But when cycling by adding ammonia, the numbers of suitable bacteria are increasing. You have the initial dose of bacteria, but not the expanded numbers needed to add a bunch of fish.

If you went slow, with say a hermit crab or two and a little food each day, that would also expand the numbers of nitrifying bacteria. Nothing wrong at all with doing that, but it is slower than by adding ammonia.

 

[Fish Fan]

To build an effective biofilter you're going to have to have some ammonia for the bacteria. The ammonia can come from a few different sources such as hardy livestock, fish food, a piece of shrimp from the seafood market, or ammonia from a bottle, like Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride. You're going to want some way to raise ammonia at this point, but you don't necessarily have to use ammonia from a bottle, if that's what you're trying to avoid.

I hope that helps; good luck!

 

[tarmer]

Thank You both for response…. I appreciate the answers, I also appreciate the options provided….. I really don’t want to add livestock now because I know it needs to cycle and not sure I want to subject anything to that and I am not wanting to feed tank…

But as I understand from what you are saying is that I really need to add ammonia source somehow regardless of selected method… I assume that if i do mot this cycle will probably never complete properly - is that correct - in the end I am more concerned about the correct cycling than the time for cycling

So i can add shrimp as you said and just let it do its thing and that would work as well as any other method ?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I used the caribsea ocean direct ( it was in a wet bag when opened)

There is likely bacteria here, nitrifiers, autotrophs,or both.

and the caribsea life rock - Not wanting to get into a debate over live or not with either as this is also subjective to the responder.

There is nothing subjective to debate, it is dry aragonite rock (man made at that). There is nothing live about it unless you sneeze on it.

The point being that the “pre-seeded” deyhdrated “dormant” nitrifiers claim is technically possible, but handling, sneezing and everything else you put into the new tank is as “seeded”. The pre-seed nonsense is a marketing gimmick — unless @Dan_P feels like doing a lab test

OR is it more likely that everything is 0 because there is nothing for bacteria to breakdown and raise the numbers

This — as others have mentioned, for the bacterial colonies to grow (build a system capable of processing nitrogen) those bacteria need food.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So i can add shrimp as you said and just let it do its thing and that would work as well as any other method ?

That will work fine. Just don’t keep dumping in bottled bacteria and ammonia. You will end up with with a heterotroph bloom instead of nitrifiers, and that will just prolong the process.

 

[Dan_P]

Good Day -
There are literally tons of posts here about cycling and various cycling methods and there is an equal amount of opinions about this…. What I wanted to inquire about is the possibility of a cycle happening without ammonia source as follows below:

Let me preface this by I am in no hurry nor do I believe there is a magic solution to it but there may be options that are possible

I started the tank 1 week ago ( it is a 20 gallon tall) I used the caribsea ocean direct ( it was in a wet bag when opened) and the caribsea life rock - Not wanting to get into a debate over live or not with either as this is also subjective to the responder. I turned filter (hob) and light (aqua illumination blade) on and let it run a few days. I added a bottle of dr tims one and only and have done nothing more….

About two days ago I stated noticing diatoms (which is fine) growing in sand and rocks… I decided to test water to get baseline - Now I am using an API kit at the moment. I know they do not have a great reputation but I have used before and they do get you somewhere in the ballpark to see what you have.

My ammonia looked to be around 0 as did my nitrite - I also tested nitate to see if that had any reading and based on color and accuracy of test I would say it is not 0 but also not high - I have attached photos of all 3 tests as well as diatom photo

So the long winded question becomes - I understand that diatoms do not indicate a complete cycle as they can occur at differing times - But is it possible to have this tank cycle without adding anything further for breakdown- OR is it more likely that everything is 0 because there is nothing for bacteria to breakdown and raise the numbers

I do not believe this tank is cycled in any way but do want to make sure it is going to as i have described

TIA

Very likely there was several tenths of a ppm of ammonia in the freshly made saltwater and a good chance of a couple tenths of nitrate. That is more than enough to grow diatoms. Dr. Tim’s was another source of inorganic nutrients and probably organic carbon. The ammonia and nitrate won’t be detected by the API kit but nitrite could. It is certainly possible that most of the inorganic nitrogen will be consumed by photosynthetic organisms before a significant amount of nitrifying bacteria populate the aquarium. You don’t need nitrifying bacteria if you have enough algae growing, but that would be a highly unusual route to take. Dr. Tim’s can be very slow to start at 2 ppm ammonia and may never do anything with a trace of ammonia.

 

[Dan_P]

There is likely bacteria here, nitrifiers, autotrophs,or both.


There is nothing subjective to debate, it is dry aragonite rock (man made at that). There is nothing live about it unless you sneeze on it.



This — as others have mentioned, for the bacterial colonies to grow (build a system capable of processing nitrogen) those bacteria need food.

Just saw your post. I was ready to mark you an “inactive member” :-)

 

[BeanAnimal]

lol

 

[tarmer]

There is likely bacteria here, nitrifiers, autotrophs,or both.


There is nothing subjective to debate, it is dry aragonite rock (man made at that). There is nothing live about it unless you sneeze on it.

The point being that the “pre-seeded” deyhdrated “dormant” nitrifiers claim is technically possible, but handling, sneezing and everything else you put into the new tank is as “seeded”. The pre-seed nonsense is a marketing gimmick — unless @Dan_P feels like doing a lab test



This — as others have mentioned, for the bacterial colonies to grow (build a system capable of processing nitrogen) those bacteria need food.

Thank you - the subjective was noted as I did not want to go off topic and derail this conversation- I myself understand this is dry rock no life….. but really did not want to go down any other path than we did and only mentioned for the information of what was in the tank - as dry tock has been known to have other challenges to some

 

[BeanAnimal]

Pros and cons for live or dry rock start. You will be successful either way as long as you take your time and stick to the basics. Last people get in trouble trying to move too fast and try too many things.

Water, rock sand, fish and coral, and time. Don’t create problems by trying to solve problems that don’t yet exist. You will find success.

 

[tarmer]

Sorry to kick this back up - wanted to get some further feedback on this…. Ok I am 3 weeks in - not a long time by any means - I had a 3 gallon tank that was crashing and the light was failing so some of the corals shrunk and looks like bleached (probably partially from bad lighting - being too low not too high)

So I moved the mushrooms that survived into the tank - and managed to also get a starfish that hitched in….. in either case they have now been in for about a week and all seem to be doing fine - well except the ones that were not well before ( but have not gotten any worse) I have an ammonia reading of 0 nitrate which looks like maybe a tad more than 0 again no hurry on this ( I only moved corals as they were dying and needed to break down broken tank)

Not convinced I am cycled - though also cannot say I am not as the diatoms came and within a couple days were gone, which leads me to think some bacteria activity was going on

Any further thoughts on this ?
As always TIA

 

[BeanAnimal]

Young have living things in the tank and no ammonia; something is consuming it. Stop worrying about nitrite and nitrate.

 

[tarmer]

Young have living things in the tank and no ammonia; something is consuming it. Stop worrying about nitrite and nitrate.

Thank You….. Not really wanting so much to worry about it - want to confirm my thinking is on right track

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What are you next wanting to do with the tank if it was deemed to be cycled?

 

[tarmer]

What are you next wanting to do with the tank if it was deemed to be cycled?

I am going to start slow - but ultimately I am looking for mushrooms, maybe some other softies and possibly in the future some montipora trying to keep it as simple as possible - I will probably add a couple of clownfish ( down the road a few months) i am going out of town and want to wait to get back for them

And when the need starts to arise CUC - very simple without super grand scale

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You are certainly good to go add those mushrooms and soft corals now.