NP Bacto Balance - Questions - Do I start dosing?

[tylr9m482]

Hey guys so I recently came across this product and started doing some research as I have been battling high PO4 and liked the idea of making this available to my corals for a higher rate of consumption rather than just exporting out of the tank, something that Lou from TM claims this product does well.

Here's my background, 4 year old 200 gallon mixed reef, acro dom, currently dosing Nitrates to maintain a level of 5-10ppm NO3. Adversely I have been dealing with high phosphates for some time and am currently in what I see as a sweet spot of 0.05-0.12ppm PO4. That being said I am dosing 4ml a day of brightwell Phosphat-E (phospate remover). This has been dosed everyday for about 2-3 months now. No ill effects but I have some reservations about continuing this product as an long term solution.

So here I am today wondering, do I mess with a recipe that seems to currently be working? Dosing in NO3 and also dosing PO4 remover (Phosphat-E)?

Or will this product, NP Bacto Balance, manage my PO4 and allow me to stop dosing the Phospat-E. Managing my PO4 in a way my corals can benefit by consuming it at a faster rate? Also a little worried about bottoming out my NO3 since I already have to add it in and heard this product can make the Nitrogen become undetectable on our test kits, I use Hannah HR Nitrate checker.

Thanks for any and all input to this discussion!

 

[Subsea]

I keep up with nitrogen demand using ammonia. During photosynthesis, micro algae consumes N:P in 16:1 ratio and most macro algae consumes N:P in a ratio of 30:1. I don’t know what ratio your corals zooanthellia consumes N:P, but for certain, phosphate is sequestered in coral biomass.

I know nothing about the product you asked about. However, I can bump the thread.

This is a summary of phosphate sequestration in coral:

“Expect N:P ratios in coral biomass to be variable but generally higher than 16:1, reflecting adaptation to nutrient-limited environments, with ratios around 8:1 to 28:1 being common, depending on the specific site and conditions. “

 

[tylr9m482]

Thanks for the bump!

I'm not so concerned with the numbers and the ratios as much as I am just system stability and overall coral health. If the corals are happy, whatever the test kits read, I think I'll be happy with and will strive to maintain general stability.

But back to the question of the product, anyone who has experience with Tropic Marin NP Bacto Balance and can chime in?

End goal would be to use this product and eliminate the need for my current phosphate remover (Brightwell Phosphat-E). Lou claims the bacteria in Bacto Balance helps break down the phosphate into a more readily available food source for our coral and thus creating more available nutrients in the water column, promoting coral uptake (which would be the removal aspect), instead of removing it directly through export as I am currently doing .

Or again, am I over thinking this and should just keep things in my system as is. I have no desire to add another additive and then still need to be dosing what I am already adding to my tank PLUS a new product. And I wasn't really too interested in purchasing the Plus-NP or Elimi-NP and start chasing numbers with all three products either. Ultimately I like where I am now. I just want to simplify how I am arriving at these numbers while providing as much nutrients that my corals can benefit from as possible, which as I've said earlier in my post, is one of the main reasons this product originally sounded appealing to me. Thanks agin!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I personally would not be using a phosphate remover at your levels, but if you are happy with the results, I'm not going to suggest stopping it.

NP bactobalance seems to be a fine product that some folks like, but I'm not sure its any better for you than simple DIY organic dosing to drive bacteria and possibly feed corals.

 

[tylr9m482]

I personally would not be using a phosphate remover at your levels, but if you are happy with the results, I'm not going to suggest stopping it.

NP bactobalance seems to be a fine product that some folks like, but I'm not sure its any better for you than simple DIY organic dosing to drive bacteria and possibly feed corals.

I would like to stop the use of the phosphate remover as well. Frankly if I didn't need either product that would be ideal! I've decreased the amount dosed over time but currently find if I continue to decrease the dosage amount, my numbers start to just slowly and steadily creep back up, as it is now the level is maintained. I know the bigger issue is finding the source of the PO4 and removing or limiting how it's getting into the tank but I haven't been able to confidently pinpoint anything, I have the thought it could be leaching out of my rocks/sand bed as the system was neglected for about 18 months and levels grew to 1.12 ppm PO4 which I have worked down to where I am today. Currently maintained with weekly 10-15% water changes every weekend and the phosphate remover.

But again I guess the larger issue is why are my phosphates kept climbing higher and nitrates were staying bottomed out at 0ppm until I started adding them into my tank by dosing a liquid nitrate solution.

Lou from TM suggested that typical Vodka or Vinagar dosing (and excuse my crude explination of this from memory) but he said basically the way they break down the PO4 to be consumed allows it to easiy be consumed by the "bad guys" Ie cyano, hair algea, nucesn stuff. But they way Bacto balance works, it breaks it down in a way that those "bad guys" are less able, not unable, but less able to consume them and allows the corals to consume more of it. So my thought process is that if that is true, I effectively have "free coral food" in my water column not being utilized and is being removed before the corals can get to it with the Phosphat-e (phospate remover) so why not try this product in it's place to add the additional benifit of the corals digesting more of the nutrients themselves.

But again I'm not great at the true science of it all and do not want to start something that will just cause me more problems, or just throw money down the drain as it's hard in this hobby to sometimes tell the truely helpful proucts from the snake oil. And in that thought as well, each of our systems are different so a product that was working well and effectively for one reefer may appear to do nothing for the next, therefore in that reefers eyes be the "snake oil" as aforementioned while the first reefer who had welcomed success with the same product would swear by it as a positive addition to their system!

 

[Subsea]

Thanks for the bump!

I'm not so concerned with the numbers and the ratios as much as I am just system stability and overall coral health. If the corals are happy, whatever the test kits read, I think I'll be happy with and will strive to maintain general stability.

But back to the question of the product, anyone who has experience with Tropic Marin NP Bacto Balance and can chime in?

End goal would be to use this product and eliminate the need for my current phosphate remover (Brightwell Phosphat-E). Lou claims the bacteria in Bacto Balance helps break down the phosphate into a more readily available food source for our coral and thus creating more available nutrients in the water column, promoting coral uptake (which would be the removal aspect), instead of removing it directly through export as I am currently doing .

Or again, am I over thinking this and should just keep things in my system as is. I have no desire to add another additive and then still need to be dosing what I am already adding to my tank PLUS a new product. And I wasn't really too interested in purchasing the Plus-NP or Elimi-NP and start chasing numbers with all three products either. Ultimately I like where I am now. I just want to simplify how I am arriving at these numbers while providing as much nutrients that my corals can benefit from as possible, which as I've said earlier in my post, is one of the main reasons this product originally sounded appealing to me. Thanks agin!

I have used the product and could not tell the difference after 3 months, so I stopped using it. Lou & I briefly discussed it. I am not a scientist. However, after 55 years in the hobby with a 25 year mature tank, I can not feed enough to register inorganic nitrate, so I dose ammonia, which is preferred by corals and macro algae.

My focus is the microbial food web, so I doubt that my tanks ecosystem operates the same as yours.

@tylr9m482
PS: My bad about initially saying that I know nothing about the product. After I posted, I opened up my reef supply cabinet and saw the product. NP Bacteria Balance.

 

[exnisstech]

I tried bacto balance and didn't notice any difference but I didn't have low NO3 just high PO4. PO4 would would test higher than the Hanna ULR can test which is 0.9. NO3 runs 25-40 I keep PO4 0.3 - 0.5ish using some rowaphos. I do weekly WCs of 25g on 285g total.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The P source is almost certainly foods, unless you use tap water.

I have a much higher range of target phosphate, and I’m not convinced 0.3 ppm is a concern.

 

[tylr9m482]

I tried bacto balance and didn't notice any difference but I didn't have low NO3 just high PO4. PO4 would would test higher than the Hanna ULR can test which is 0.9. NO3 runs 25-40 I keep PO4 0.3 - 0.5ish using some rowaphos. I do weekly WCs of 25g on 285g total.

Good to know since lowing PO4 would be my main goal, well maybe not lowering but maintaining and replacing my current phosphate remover.

The P source is almost certainly foods, unless you use tap water.

I have a much higher range of target phosphate, and I’m not convinced 0.3 ppm is a concern.

No tap, I have a full RODI unit. I feed a mix of frozen foods, LFS reef frenzy, PE mysis, brine shrimp, fish eggs, and pellets on a auto feeder once a day.

Thinking I'll start by slowing lowering my Phosphat-E dosage, and see how high the PO4 climbs before it hopefully settles.

With the higher acceptable PO4, do you find the NO3 needs to be elivated as well to stay in balance or do you veiw these as to complete seperate elements that do not need to be correlated together by ratio.

Thanks!

 

[Subsea]

Ratios are completely separate, only that sufficient quantities are available.

I am in the camp that both N & P should be on the high side and not limited. However, I run high nutrient systems with soft corals and diversity of filter feeders.

 

[Matty Ice]

I always had an issue with 0ppm nitrates and high(+0.25ppm) phosphates testing with Hanna and Trident NP. Starting about a year ago, I now use NP Bacto Balance on a doser. Also keep Plus-NP and Elimi-NP on hand since that’s what is recommended to use to keep numbers in the range you want. I also dose ammonium chloride to raise nitrates. Since starting these can’t say I’ve noticed a difference in the corals but my numbers are more managed. I do need to pause the Bacto Balance a few days here and there and either dose the plus or elimi manually based on my numbers.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Good to know since lowing PO4 would be my main goal, well maybe not lowering but maintaining and replacing my current phosphate remover.


No tap, I have a full RODI unit. I feed a mix of frozen foods, LFS reef frenzy, PE mysis, brine shrimp, fish eggs, and pellets on a auto feeder once a day.

Thinking I'll start by slowing lowering my Phosphat-E dosage, and see how high the PO4 climbs before it hopefully settles.

With the higher acceptable PO4, do you find the NO3 needs to be elivated as well to stay in balance or do you veiw these as to complete seperate elements that do not need to be correlated together by ratio.

Thanks!

I do not believe the ratio between nitrate and phosphate has any sort of optimal value. One being high or low is not a good reason for the other to be. I suggest targeting both to appropriate ranges.

This is my recommendation and the rationale for it:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/
from it:

4. What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.