Nutrient Imbalance

[Maho.B]

Hi everyone, I know the topic of nutrients is quite endless, I am just looking for an opinion from someone who may have experienced whats happening in my system. In a nutshell, over the last month or so, my phosphates have been slowly rising while my nitrates are dropping. For the last several months prior, both were pretty consistent week to week (I test those two values once a week) until about a month ago. The only change to my system in the last couple months was the addition of 9 new frags, all at once, and 1 small (1 ") clam. Would those additions cause my phos/nitrate change? Oh, a week and a half ago my heater failed and I got a new one, my temp had a swing of a few degrees for a couple days but I can't see how that would affect anything. Values over the last 8 weeks:

12/21: Phos 0.11 Nitrate: 5.5
12/29: Phos .09 Nitrate: 4.1
1/5: Phos 0.1 Nitrate: 4.6
1/12: Phos 0.07 Nitrate: 4.3
1/22: Phos 0.09 Nitrate: 5.1
2/2: Phos 0.15 Nitrate: 4.7
2/8: Phos 0.17 Nitrate: 1.5
2/13: Phos 0.11 Nitrate: 0.3

Any thoughts on these changing values? Since I haven't changed anything, same foods, same quantity, same water change schedule, same salt, etc. I will add, the corals look like they are fine with the only exception being the 3 different Montipora I have look a little dull in color compared to a few weeks ago, not bad, but they do seem not as colorful. Other than that everything is looking great so I'm not looking to make any large/quick change, just wondering why the Nitrate is dropping all of a sudden and if it's worth slowly dosing to get it up? If so, what product is recommended. I currently do not dose either nutrient.

Oh, both Phos and Nitrate test kits I use are Hanna. System is 110 gallons, mixed reef. I keep Alkalinity stable at 7.6 - 7.8 depending on the time of day tested.

Thanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

In this situation, I’d feed more or dose food grade ammonium bicarbonate..

This has a lot more discussion:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

IMO, the changes over time are small and trying to dissect a why is not going to be fruitful aside from the simplistic statement that demand is higher than additions.

 

[Maho.B]

Thanks Randy, I'll take a look at the article. My hesitation with feeding more is I feel my phosphate is around the higher level right now. I currently feed 1 1/2 cubes of mixed frozen food per day, and use phyto feast, roti feast and oyster feast a few times a week.

 

[Maho.B]

Demand is higher than additions makes sense, thanks.

Thanks Randy, I'll take a look at the article. My hesitation with feeding more is I feel my phosphate is around the higher level right now. I currently feed 1 1/2 cubes of mixed frozen food per day, and use phyto feast, roti feast and oyster feast a few times a week.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks Randy, I'll take a look at the article. My hesitation with feeding more is I feel my phosphate is around the higher level right now. I currently feed 1 1/2 cubes of mixed frozen food per day, and use phyto feast, roti feast and oyster feast a few times a week.

That's a fine opinion on the phosphate, but my current recommendation in that article is:

What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

 

[Maho.B]

This is interesting. I will definitely have to look into growing macroalgae, like could I do it in my sump, I like the idea of a gentle export method and not binding, but I'm not sure I want Chaeto in my DT. I'll look into the details of growing it, thanks!

 

[Maho.B]

That's a fine opinion on the phosphate, but my current recommendation in that article is:

What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

In this situation, I’d feed more or dose food grade ammonium bicarbonate..

This has a lot more discussion:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/

Trying to figure out where to buy the ammonium bicarbonate, it is often referred to as bakers ammonia on Amazon, is this the correct material to use for dosing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes, bakers ammonia is good.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-ammonia-dosing-for-low-nitrate-systems.987087/

 

[Pistondog]

I use this:
https://a.co/d/8ljEyzg

 

[Maho.B]

Thanks!

 

[Maho.B]

Guys, need your opinion again. I ordered the ammonium bicarbonate and it will arrive sometime on Monday. As mentioned above the nitrate has been going down, yesterday it was 0.3 and now today it's 0.0. phosphate is 0.13.

Would you recommend hitting the LFS today and her NeoNitrate or similar to dose until the Ammonium bicarbonate arrives? Or let it ride at 0 for the next couple days. Thanks in advance.

 

[Pistondog]

Perhaps there are guidelines on here for dosing liquid ammonia.
Otherwise id let it ride.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Guys, need your opinion again. I ordered the ammonium bicarbonate and it will arrive sometime on Monday. As mentioned above the nitrate has been going down, yesterday it was 0.3 and now today it's 0.0. phosphate is 0.13.

Would you recommend hitting the LFS today and her NeoNitrate or similar to dose until the Ammonium bicarbonate arrives? Or let it ride at 0 for the next couple days. Thanks in advance.

You could just feed more. Neonitrate works to raise nitrate, but it is expensive and lacks a purity assurance.

 

[Maho.B]

Glad it's the weekend, will be able to feed more than I typically would on weekdays. Thanks guys

 

[fish_collector]

Your nutrient levels are falling into ranges that are good. Personally, I feel it's much easier to have to add them on a regular basis than trying to remove them. In my 80g frag tank, 40 sps frags/mini colonies only and a few tangs and damsels, I have to add both every few days or they will bottom out. I don't test nearly as often as I used to because I can tell by the color of the frags if the nutrients are getting low. I only add in small increments, 4-6ml a day of phos solution (Loudwold TSP, 20grams in 1 liter of rodi I believe) and a pinch or two of sodium nitrate granules (I have not made a solution of it yet), this keeps my phos at .03-.06 and the nitrate at 5-10. Sometimes both go higher if I get carried away with manual dosing but doesn't seem to affect anything lol. What I really need to do is set both up on an automatic doser, measure them a few times to get the dose right and then forget about it until the dosing tanks are empty lol.

I used to use amino acids, oyster feast, reef roids etc but I have discontinued all of that. In my tank, those products are like rocket fuel for algae and they make it very difficult to control the nutrient levels.

I also have dosed ammonium bicarbonate from time to time, and like reef roids, it seems to be fuel for algae so I have not been using it. Everything will use ammonia and I do see the benefits but I have found it easier to maintain the corals without it.

My 2 part usage has doubled in the last 60 days which means the corals are using it, so I know I'm on the right path ;)

 

[Maho.B]

That's an interesting perspective, I approve it. Can you give more info on the sodium nitrate granules? I've not heard of that method. Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That's an interesting perspective, I approve it. Can you give more info on the sodium nitrate granules? I've not heard of that method. Thanks

Are you asking about dosing food grade sodium nitrate? It’s a fine way to boost nitrate, but in at least many cases, corals respond better to ammonium dosing.

 

[Maho.B]

Are you asking about dosing food grade sodium nitrate? It’s a fine way to boost nitrate, but in at least many cases, corals respond better to ammonium dosing.

I've already ordered the ammonium bicarbonate, I was asking you about the sodium version just to learn other aspects. The only thing I've used in the past was neo-nitrate and I had a negative experience with it in my opinion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I've already ordered the ammonium bicarbonate, I was asking you about the sodium version just to learn other aspects. The only thing I've used in the past was neo-nitrate and I had a negative experience with it in my opinion.

What negative result? Sodium nitrate will be similar but cheaper and possibly purer.