Nutrient Management by “Old School” Reefer

[Subsea]

Let’s talk about sponges as a major player

I am not, will never be, and am just too plain hardheaded to ever be in a league to enter this debate on any level. That said, as a reef hobbyist this quote that Timfish used is , in my opinion, the single most important thing we can learn from.

In my opinion, when we see the very successful reefers, over a span of years, they all seem to embrace lots of food input and lots of waste extraction. I have argued for years that coral reefs are anything but nutrient poor. Instead they are very low in residual nutrients in such that anything that flows into the system is utilized by some life form almost instantly. Also that any excess in nutrients will be met by an increase in an organism that utilizes that nutrient source. In other words, balance of in and out. Sorry to derail but that quote is awesome.

No derail here. Thank you for your input. Actually, I used the quote first and Timfish expounded on it, however I got it from him years ago.

 

[dennis romano]

Eureka, I have found it!

[Archimedes was so thrilled and excited with this discovery that he immediately hopped out of the bath and ran onto the streets to tell the king, shouting loudly 'Eureka! Eureka!' (I have found it!) ]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/D-Oevelen/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop/links/5589c0b108ae273b2876d7b8/2013-deGoeij-Science-Sponge-loop.pdf?origin=publication_detail

[Ever since Darwin’s early descriptions of coral reefs, scientists have debated how one of the world’s most productive and diverse ecosystems can thrive in the marine equivalent of a desert. It is an enigma how the flux of dissolved organic matter (DOM), the largest resource produced on reefs, is transferred to higher trophic levels. Here we show that sponges make DOM available to fauna by rapidly expelling filter cells as detritus that is subsequently consumed by reef fauna. This “sponge loop” was confirmed in aquarium and in situ food web experiments, using 13C- and 15N-enriched DOM. The DOM-sponge-fauna pathway explains why biological hot spots such as coral reefs persist in oligotrophic seas—the reef’s paradox—and has implications for reef ecosystem functioning and conservation strategies.]

You guys are killing me. I clicked on the links in the thread. My memories as an undergrad in environmental biology kicked in and I actually knew what I was reading. LOL As for the sponge loop, they are an important food source for many invertebrates, fish and sea turtles, further up the food pyramid. By the way, how are your sponges doing?

 

[Subsea]

[As was known way back in the early days of reef keeping; 'The more major elements from the natural reef environment that we can incorporate into our systems, the more likely we are to have a positive outcome'.]

Let’s talk about the sponge loop as a major player in recycling nutrients. I started with ornamental sponges to go with sea apples and flame scallops. Now I find out, they are my secret to reefkeeping. Sponges recycle DOM into detritus which is carbon that is uptaken by detrivores whose larvae move this carbon up the food chain.

MULM in a Reef Tank by @Paul B

[I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (Then love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.]

 

[Subsea]

You guys are killing me. I clicked on the links in the thread. My memories as an undergrad in environmental biology kicked in and I actually knew what I was reading. LOL As for the sponge loop, they are an important food source for many invertebrates, fish and sea turtles, further up the food pyramid. By the way, how are your sponges doing?

Sponges are doing great. I may have to help Yellow Ball brush it’s fur off of diatom growth, but everybody grazes nicely. Flame scallop is hiding in Rock Mountain along with runaway Red Bubble Tip Anemones and his big brother Long Tipped Anemone.

 

[Nano sapiens]

[As was known way back in the early days of reef keeping; 'The more major elements from the natural reef environment that we can incorporate into our systems, the more likely we are to have a positive outcome'.]

Let’s talk about the sponge loop as a major player in recycling nutrients. I started with ornamental sponges to go with sea apples and flame scallops. Now I find out, they are my secret to reefkeeping. Sponges recycle DOM into detritus which is carbon that is uptaken by detrivores whose larvae move this carbon up the food chain.

MULM in a Reef Tank by @Paul B

[I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (Then love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.]

I have seen an author or two go out of their way to declare that sponges are 'bad for a reef aquarium'. What was meant, I believe, is that some sponges can harm corals and other invertebrates when in close contact, which is true. However, blanket statements like that can be taken by novices, especially, as, 'sponges are bad in your reef tank'...which is very far from the truth.

The great thing about sponges is that if one has started with ocean live rock...they will be present and almost certainly spread to cryptic locations throughout a system over time. This is one group of very important organisms that is typically missing in a system established with only dry rock and I believe the lack thereof contributes to the various issues seen in these types of low diversity systems. Their ability to filter large quantities of detritus/DOM/microorganisms and provide nourishment for other inverts in the form of cast off cells gives them special importance. While they do have a rep for producing nitrate (nitrifying bacteria reside within their structure), a healthy balanced system should be able to provide sufficient denitrification so that it becomes a non-issue.

Personally, I don't go out of my way to add sponges as I have a few different opaque/white species that have taken up residence wherever darkness prevails. Much of my LR is now 25 years old and these guys show no sign of fading away (such a simple organism, I'd imagine probably close to immortal)

 

[Subsea]

I have seen an author or two go out of their way to declare that sponges are 'bad for a reef aquarium'. What was meant, I believe, is that some sponges can harm corals and other invertebrates when in close contact, which is true. However, blanket statements like that can be taken by novices, especially, as, 'sponges are bad in your reef tank'...which is very far from the truth.

The great thing about sponges is that if one has started with ocean live rock...they will be present and almost certainly spread to cryptic locations throughout a system over time. This is one group of very important organisms that is typically missing in a system established with only dry rock and I believe the lack thereof contributes to the various issues seen in these types of low diversity systems. Their ability to filter large quantities of detritus/DOM/microorganisms and provide nourishment for other inverts in the form of cast off cells gives them special importance. While they do have a rep for producing nitrate (nitrifying bacteria reside within their structure), a healthy balanced system should be able to provide sufficient denitrification so that it becomes a non-issue.

Personally, I don't go out of my way to add sponges as I have a few different opaque/white species that have taken up residence wherever darkness prevails. Much of my LR is now 25 years old and these guys show no sign of fading away (such a simple organism, I'd imagine probably close to immortal)

When new reefers are cautioned to fear every hitchhiker, they respond and go with sterile: bacteria in a bottle and one size fits all.

@Fish_Sticks
What critters do you have and consider beneficial in your mixed garden that have been standard demonized in hobby forums.

@Nano sapiens
With respect to sponges, it was @Timfish that got me into cryptic refugiums and I just realized that the plenum under the sandbed in both tanks is a cryptic refugium (120G at 3 yrs old & 75G at 25 years old.

When I added diver collected Gulf Live Rock to my established tanks it was the BOMB. I thought I was a savvy experienced reefer until I saw that stuff. Yes, I still have some of those Bryozones and recently with a more vigorous coral feeding schedule yellow sponges and orange bryozoans are emerging from bare rock surface.

 

[Timfish]

. . . By the way, how are your sponges doing?

OK I guess. These are in one of my systems.

 

[HuduVudu]

PS. @Lasse puts skimmate underneath his plenum to be consumed by anarobic bacteria. In municiple waste water treatment, this would be called an
“anaerobic digester”.

I actually made a "real" digester. Was a very interesting experiment. I am still trying to sort at all that it had to teach me.

 

[HuduVudu]

but changes in oxygen concentration drastically effected calcification.

This is very interesting. I am always struggling to get proper oxygenation. The oxygenator seems interesting and I would fall back on it I suppose, but I prefer to try to get oxygentation mechanically.

I just recently pulled the skimmer from my 20 breeder. I was finally fed up with it stripping my tank. I only put it on because the gas exchange was horrendous on my tank. I did figure out a new trick to replace it though. I use my Apex to have a pump that intentionally pulls air cycle on a regular basis. This keeps the surface clean and also helps some with oxygenation.

I find it crazy how fundemental a role gas exchange is for our aquariums. It has even led me to question my indoor air quality. I find it strange that my grandparents all lived well into their late eighties yet their children died in their late sixties. This with three of those grandparents smoking until they died. After installing the ERV in my house I am convinced that gas exchange is the key, and all of this comes from my thinking on my aquariums.

Great thread.

 

[Subsea]

OK I guess. These are in one of my systems.

Tim,
Thank you for the link on sponges. The paragraph below sums up the importance of the “sponge”loop in the marine ecosystem of the reef habitat. In reading a few paragraphs down, “the sponge filters out enough DOM to double in size every 5 hours except for shedding off its outer skin as detritus, which is carbon for the “microbial loop”. Since the lights came on, I’ll take pictures of sponge tank.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/D-Oevelen/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop/links/5589c0b108ae273b2876d7b8/2013-deGoeij-Science-Sponge-loop.pdf?origin=publication_detail

[DOM removal rates in cryptic habitats on Caribbean reefs (12) are comparable to the average gross primary production rates of the entire coral reef ecosystem (2). DOM removal rates on Indo-Pacific reefs are lower (12) but still account for up to 46% of the average gross reef productivity. Sponges are primarily respon- sible for total DOM uptake and remove the same amount of DOM from the water column in 30 min as free-living bacteria take up in 30 day]

 

[Subsea]

I actually made a "real" digester. Was a very interesting experiment. I am still trying to sort at all that it had to teach me.

Looks sexy. I had a Joubert Plenum which had some similarities.

 

[Subsea]

This is very interesting. I am always struggling to get proper oxygenation. The oxygenator seems interesting and I would fall back on it I suppose, but I prefer to try to get oxygentation mechanically.

I just recently pulled the skimmer from my 20 breeder. I was finally fed up with it stripping my tank. I only put it on because the gas exchange was horrendous on my tank. I did figure out a new trick to replace it though. I use my Apex to have a pump that intentionally pulls air cycle on a regular basis. This keeps the surface clean and also helps some with oxygenation.

I find it crazy how fundemental a role gas exchange is for our aquariums. It has even led me to question my indoor air quality. I find it strange that my grandparents all lived well into their late eighties yet their children died in their late sixties. This with three of those grandparents smoking until they died. After installing the ERV in my house I am convinced that gas exchange is the key, and all of this comes from my thinking on my aquariums.

Great thread.

ERV?

For certain, modern homes are sealed more air tight resulting in higher CO2 levels, which was demonstrated by routing protein skimmer air to be drawn from outside the home.

 

[HuduVudu]

Looks sexy. I had a Joubert Plenum which had some similarities.

I have been using Jauberts for years, in fact my current tank has one on it. The digester was an idea that I had to try and turbo charge the plenum. I fed the digester two small balls of beef a day. I was trying to be able to mineralize with the digester only. That part was a failure, but my coral growth was really good. I am trying to figure out why that was.

One interesting understanding that I made was that H2S didn't impact the fish. Everyone says that H2S kills but I didn't see that, and I had a lot of it in my system.

One thing that I have found over the years is that plenums really help stablize the tank and seem to add to the biodiversity. TBH I won't build a tank without one.

ERV?

For certain, modern homes are sealed more air tight resulting in higher CO2 levels, which was demonstrated by routing protein skimmer air to be drawn from outside the home.

I saw the PH swing from opening my window. I thougt about what everyone was suggesting for how to deal with it but then I thought bigger. What if the CO2 in my house is high, and if it is how high? I bought a indoor air quality monitor. Holy cow that opened my eyes. The thing that was most shocking was that I was breathing stupidly high CO2. I started opening the windows twice a day and using a fan to get the CO2 levels down. That was a pain. I tried plants, that was a bust. Then someone here on R2R suggested and ERV. It has been the best investment I have ever made for both my aquarium and my health.

Energy Recovery Ventilators

Green building trends promote healthy homes through balanced ventilation. Our versatile ERV systems replace stale air with the optimal supply of fresh air throughout the day.

na.panasonic.com

 

[schuby]

I had those yellow and pink sponges in my first tank, started in 2004 will 100% live rock. I was a complete noob and that tank grew SPS so easily.

My current, 2nd tank was started with dry rock in Jan-2019, after leaving the hobby for 3 years (moved from west coast to east coast for work and then back). I foolishly believed posts that there was no difference in dry rock vs live rock. There is a huge difference: everything takes longer to and the tank has been far more fragile. I've been added bio-diversity with several shipments from IPSF.com and feeding my tangs fresh clams.

I really miss all the sponges and amazing life that was in that first tank on the live rock. I clearly remember being amazed to discover something that I had never seen before, even after several years.

 

[User1]

OK I guess. These are in one of my systems.

I have the white sponge thing growing in my overflow box. I threw some rubble in there earlier in the year and noticed besides the pods living I'm starting to see this stuff. While rock walls are not ideal in tanks these days as many want flow I built a wall for darkness hoping that I would see the sponges and otherwise cryptic place.

 

[HuduVudu]

I've been added bio-diversity with several shipments from IPSF.com and feeding my tangs fresh clams.

Is that helping?

 

[schuby]

Is that helping?

Yes, I fully believe it is. I purchased WonderMud, Live Sand Activator, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, and amphipods (package deal) and mini brittle-stars in August from IPSF.com. I just recently purchased more spaghetti worms and mini stars. I'm expecting the bristle worms and spaghetti worms will help my 2-3" sand-bed function at its best (de-nitirfication and other anaerobic things).

I have white sponges growing in my tank. I don't know the source, but I'm happy to have them.

My SPS frags (who knew such tiny things were "frags" and not "chips") and few LPS are quite stable and growing. There are many other things happening (dosing phyto, 2-part, carbon-dosing, ...) but the IPSF additions are only improving my tank's success.

With my first tank, I only remember testing salinity (hydrometer) and calcium (ATI ?). If calcium was off, then I manually adjusted the bubbles-per-minute on my CaRx. Lights were on or off (Metal Halides) and I never heard of Alkalinity. My LFS set me up well (out-of-business for many years now).

 

[HuduVudu]

It is always good to have fixes for when you make mistakes.

I am glad you were able to right the ship. It is so hard once a tank gets out of whack to get it going on a good track again.

 

[Subsea]

Yes, I fully believe it is. I purchased WonderMud, Live Sand Activator, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, and amphipods (package deal) and mini brittle-stars in August from IPSF.com. I just recently purchased more spaghetti worms and mini stars. I'm expecting the bristle worms and spaghetti worms will help my 2-3" sand-bed function at its best (de-nitirfication and other anaerobic things).

I have white sponges growing in my tank. I don't know the source, but I'm happy to have them.

My SPS frags (who knew such tiny things were "frags" and not "chips") and few LPS are quite stable and growing. There are many other things happening (dosing phyto, 2-part, carbon-dosing, ...) but the IPSF additions are only improving my tank's success.

With my first tank, I only remember testing salinity (hydrometer) and calcium (ATI ?). If calcium was off, then I manually adjusted the bubbles-per-minute on my CaRx. Lights were on or off (Metal Halides) and I never heard of Alkalinity. My LFS set me up well (out-of-business for many years now).

The mini brittle stars are the bomb. As is a calcium reactor from controlling alkalinity and calcium, magnesium and trace mineral addition with dissolving media.

 

[schuby]

It is always good to have fixes for when you make mistakes.

I am glad you were able to right the ship. It is so hard once a tank gets out of whack to get it going on a good track again.

My biggest mistake, other than not using any live rock, had to do with running chaeto. I'd never run macro-algae before and didn't know that it required iron. The chaeto grew well for six months to about the size of a basketball, and then turned light-grey over a few weeks. I didn't know if that was normal for chaeto or not. Figured out it wasn't and that it had died, releasing all the previously-consumed phosphate and nitrate back into my tank. The phosphate bound to my dry rock and left me with about 1 ppm of phosphate. I ended up getting a GFO reactor and using Rowaphos to lower it over several months. I'd guess that single event set me back at least 6-8 months. I only found out about iron by searching for "Chaeto dying" as was not mentioned when searching for "growing macro algae" or "growing chaeto" (which I had done many months before buying anything for my tank).

On another topic, I'm interested in your logic for removing your skimmer. Can you explain?