Ick Management

[noahwz]

I'm still not 100% confident in my knowledge of the ick parasitic infection. I understand that it runs a cycle daily and continues to reproduce in the substrate? I did not have a QT set up prior to getting ick.

My current tank is a mixed reef that is LPS and anemone dominant.
Livestock include:
1 Hippo Tank
1 Midas Blenny
2 Ocellaris Clowns
5 Green Chromies
1 Diamond Spotted Goby
1 Engineer Goby

Almost immediately after getting my hippo tank 2 months ago she started showing little white spots, none of the other fish were affected for a while. Eventually the Midas blenny was showing some signs of ick as well. I did some research which is when i learned about quarantining fish and coral prior to putting them into your display tank for long observed periods of time. Originally i had 5 fish in a 16 gallon biocube, and those two were the only 2 affected. I started dosing selcon in their mysis and feed x 2 daily in hopes that she would just be able to fight it off herself. I also bought vitachem, not sure which is better or if it even matters, have not tried it yet.

Fast forward to now I have a 45 gallon that everyone is in. Don't plan to add any more fish as i feel like im already maxed out. For a few weeks i left the hippo tank in my old 16 gallon and observed. Selcon appeared to have worked in managing her ick. A week had passed she seemed to be doing fine, and my midas blenny which was the only other fish showing signs which is now in my main tank has completely gotten over it. Fast forward to now, I'm sure the stress from transitioning the hippo tang into my new tank caused a lot if stress. My nutrients are also slowly stabilizing but are high which I'm sure contributes to her stress. The tank is still fairly new and is not 100% stable. Doing my best to manage that and know stability will for sure help, looking for other suggestions than water parameters.

Day to day i check for white spots on her and some days she has a lot others not as much and some days none at all. She does throw herself into the live rock which appears to seem like she is trying to scrap or itch the parasites off even when there are only a limited quanity of white spots. Today still, ONLY the hippo is showing signs.

I have a UV sterilizer coming today, and have been dosing stress guard daily due to water issues in attempt to help keep her slime coat healthy and as least stressed as possible. Its helping but obviously not gone, i don't think will eradicate this issue either. I'm not in a position to dose her with copper at the moment as my QT tank is being use for anemone and would kill the nem if I tried to treat that tank with copper.

I'm wondering if someone can simplify the ick cycle so it's easier to understand and hopefully suggest best practices to manage. I have no idea how long my UV should be on and or what time of day, what time of day I should vacuum substrate or how often I should be doing it if I even should be doing it. suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

#fishmedics to help with the ich

But honestly you should have known better than to add a tang into a 16 gallon that already had 5 fish. Even a 45 gallon is way too small. Its very cruel to continue keeping that tang in a 16 gallon, it should be returned to the store.

 

[Sharkbait19]

I’m seeing a lot of red flags here.
First and foremost, as @Mr. Mojo Rising has mentioned, you should not be keeping that many fish in a 45g tank. Perhaps I’m misinterpreting, but it sounds like that is intended to be your main display. Having that many fish as well as those types of fish in a system that small will surely contribute to stress and potential health issues down the line.
For this reason, ich management will be basically impossible. Your best option is to either run hyposalinity (assuming there are no corals or inverts to be affected by this) or go to the nearest petco and purchase multiple quarantine tanks. Treat with coppersafe for 30 days and fallow your tank for at least 60 days (76 to be on the safe side). And during those 60-76 days, please buy a larger display tank. You’ll thank yourself in the future when that hippo tang is nine inches long and the fish all become territorial.

 

[noahwz]

#fishmedics to help with the ich

But honestly you should have known better than to add a tang into a 16 gallon that already had 5 fish. Even a 45 gallon is way too small. Its very cruel to continue keeping that tang in a 16 gallon, it should be returned to the store.

It is not cruel to place a tang that is 1 inch in a 16 gallon tank then move it 2 months later to a tank 3x the size..... in a 45 gallon at 1 inch. not here for you to bash, here to learn. Go somewhere else if you cant instruct productively.

The tang was recommended at a smaller size to manage algae by my local pet store, i was warned that tangs need space which is why i have already upgraded. The tang has not grown since i bought it. And again, will be upgrading this tank again in the future once the tang and engineer goby start to get big.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I'm wondering if someone can simplify the ick cycle so it's easier to understand

So, I'll address a few points here, starting with this:

"The trophont is the "feeding stage," during which the parasite is found embedded within the tissues of the fish. After the trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont before encysting and transforming into a tomont, or "reproductive stage." The tomont develops and divides into numerous tomites, which eventually leave the cyst as theronts, the free-swimming infective stages. Theronts actively seek fish hosts."*

So, basically trophont = feeding stage; tomont = reproducing (not feeding) stage; theront = looking for host to feed on stage.

I understand that it runs a cycle daily and continues to reproduce in the substrate?

The tomonts reproduce off of the host fish - it could be in the rocks, the sand, on the corals, the algae, the inverts, etc.; this is why anything wet can potentially bring ich into the tank, and why its important to quarantine anything going into the tank.

looking for other suggestions than water parameters.

have been dosing stress guard daily due to water issues in attempt to help keep her slime coat healthy and as least stressed as possible.

As mentioned above, ich management relies on keeping fish healthy and stress-free - that will likely be very, very challenging (at least long-term) in a tank that size with a Hippo tang.

She does throw herself into the live rock which appears to seem like she is trying to scrap or itch the parasites off even when there are only a limited quanity of white spots.

This behavior is called flashing, and, to my knowledge, it's not typically a symptom of ich; this is usually more of a symptom of flukes.

So, your tang might not have ich, or you might have multiple issues going on - I'd suggest reading through the link below and coming back to post here with more info to determine what all you're dealing with so you can figure out how big the problem is and what to do to treat it:

Some Helpful Hints When Posting or Responding to Threads in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Section

Aquarium Fish Disease Problem Solving Determining the best course of action for a problem with your aquarium can be a difficult task. Even advanced aquarists will often need to seek the help of others for complicated or unique issues. Our intent here on Reef 2 Reef is to offer expert advice...

www.reef2reef.com

I'd also strongly second the idea of getting another small tank to use for QT/treatment, and then following proper QT & biosecurity protocols - I'd also suggest proper treatment of your fish if they do have ich just to be safe:

if you want to treat ich effectively, you need either copper medication (chelated copper like Coppersafe or Copper Power at 2.25-2.5ppm for 30 days after the last ich trophonts disappear is recommended) or hyposalinity (drop your salinity to 1.009 and keep the tank at that salinity for 30 days after the last signs/symptoms of the disease disappear), neither of which are reef-safe. There is no effective, reef-safe treatment for ich at the moment (at least not one that I've heard of).

Yeah, adding copper to a display tank has been done before, but it's not recommended. To prevent the tank from getting ich again, you would get the fish out and treat them (either with copper or hyposalinity - see below for info on both), then QT anything "wet" that goes into your tank (or near it) for a minimum of 45 days at 81F; 60-76 days (especially if at lower temps) is recommended. That means quarantining fish, inverts, coral, rocks, sand, macroalgae, etc.

For copper treatment and hyposalinity:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

For future quarantines:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

That said, if you decide to only do the ich management route regardless (not recommended, especially not with your current setup), the link below can give you an idea, and reading up on Paul b's ich management methods (and - importantly - why they work for him but not necessarily others) could be useful too:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

*Source:

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

 

[noahwz]

I’m seeing a lot of red flags here.
First and foremost, as @Mr. Mojo Rising has mentioned, you should not be keeping that many fish in a 45g tank. Perhaps I’m misinterpreting, but it sounds like that is intended to be your main display. Having that many fish as well as those types of fish in a system that small will surely contribute to stress and potential health issues down the line.
For this reason, ich management will be basically impossible. Your best option is to either run hyposalinity (assuming there are no corals or inverts to be affected by this) or go to the nearest petco and purchase multiple quarantine tanks. Treat with coppersafe for 30 days and fallow your tank for at least 60 days (76 to be on the safe side). And during those 60-76 days, please buy a larger display tank. You’ll thank yourself in the future when that hippo tang is nine inches long and the fish all become territorial.

Absolutely plan to upgrade in the future. most of my fish are an inch big. It is not my first-time keeping fish I have 6 freshwaters currently up and going and completely healthy I do understand space plays a role but only when growth is not being met with adequate space. Obviously salt and fresh are different but not when it comes to basics.

Will look into hyposalinty first, have to research what things in my tank will be fine and what wont, I do have a small QT going that I can rehome things within that time period.

Also what about the type of fish is contributing to higher stress? is it just volume to space or actual species conflict?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Also what about the type of fish is contributing to higher stress? is it just volume to space or actual species conflict?

Tangs are big swimmers (more easily stressed in small tanks) and are known to be particularly susceptible to ich. They tend to do better in larger tanks with more room for them to swim, hide, etc.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Absolutely plan to upgrade in the future. most of my fish are an inch big. It is not my first-time keeping fish I have 6 freshwaters currently up and going and completely healthy I do understand space plays a role but only when growth is not being met with adequate space. Obviously salt and fresh are different but not when it comes to basics.

Will look into hyposalinty first, have to research what things in my tank will be fine and what wont, I do have a small QT going that I can rehome things within that time period.

Also what about the type of fish is contributing to higher stress? is it just volume to space or actual species conflict?

Certain fish like clowns or a tang will get aggressive, especially in a smaller tank. This in turn leads to stress. Chromis also just pick each other off (or die of uronema).
Having enough space also is important, as they will stress when pacing too small of an area for too long.
If doing hypo, it requires no inverts be in the tank (as they will all die in treatment).

 

[noahwz]

So, I'll address a few points here, starting with this:

"The trophont is the "feeding stage," during which the parasite is found embedded within the tissues of the fish. After the trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont before encysting and transforming into a tomont, or "reproductive stage." The tomont develops and divides into numerous tomites, which eventually leave the cyst as theronts, the free-swimming infective stages. Theronts actively seek fish hosts."*

So, basically trophont = feeding stage; tomont = reproducing (not feeding) stage; theront = looking for host to feed on stage.

The tomonts reproduce off of the host fish - it could be in the rocks, the sand, on the corals, the algae, the inverts, etc.; this is why anything wet can potentially bring ich into the tank, and why its important to quarantine anything going into the tank.


As mentioned above, ich management relies on keeping fish healthy and stress-free - that will likely be very, very challenging (at least long-term) in a tank that size with a Hippo tang.

This behavior is called flashing, and, to my knowledge, it's not typically a symptom of ich; this is usually more of a symptom of flukes.

So, your tang might not have ich, or you might have multiple issues going on - I'd suggest reading through the link below and coming back to post here with more info to determine what all you're dealing with so you can figure out how big the problem is and what to do to treat it:

Some Helpful Hints When Posting or Responding to Threads in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Section

Aquarium Fish Disease Problem Solving Determining the best course of action for a problem with your aquarium can be a difficult task. Even advanced aquarists will often need to seek the help of others for complicated or unique issues. Our intent here on Reef 2 Reef is to offer expert advice...

www.reef2reef.com

I'd also strongly second the idea of getting another small tank to use for QT/treatment, and then following proper QT & biosecurity protocols - I'd also suggest proper treatment of your fish if they do have ich just to be safe:



That said, if you decide to only do the ich management route regardless (not recommended, especially not with your current setup), the link below can give you an idea, and reading up on Paul b's ich management methods (and - importantly - why they work for him but not necessarily others) could be useful too:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

*Source:

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Tangs are big swimmers (more easily stressed in small tanks) and are known to be particularly susceptible to ich. They tend to do better in larger tanks with more room for them to swim, hide, etc.

Yea i know about them being prone to ick especially related to stress. Do you think even though my tang is an inch big that it is too big for a 45gallon? if that is the case, i may consider rehoming until i have a bigger DT.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Do you think even though my tang is an inch big that it is too big for a 45gallon?

At 1 inch, it's likely alright for now, but it should outgrow the tank fairly quickly.

Rehoming it or upgrading very soon (i.e. within the few months) to a tank that's a more appropriate size for it would be my suggestion (as a note here, LiveAquaria is actually a pretty decent resource for gauging appropriate tank sizes for fish).

 

[noahwz]

At 1 inch, it's likely alright for now, but it should outgrow the tank fairly quickly.

Rehoming it or upgrading very soon (i.e. within the few months) to a tank that's a more appropriate size for it would be my suggestion (as a note here, LiveAquaria is actually a pretty decent resource for gauging appropriate tank sizes for fish).

Thank you, very helpful.