Nutrients and Cyano...

[Ty Hamatake]

For the longest time I was struggling with bleaching corals and as it turns out I believe it was due to low nutrients. The problem I am having now, is that whenever I get them (NO3/PO4) where I want them, 2.5-5 NO3 (Salifert) and ~.03 PO4 (Hanna ULR), I get a cyano outbreak. Is this a common issue or am I missing something? PO4 was raised naturally through increased feeding and less frequent WCs and NO3 eventually had to be dosed using Brightwell's NeoNitro. I want good color for my SPS, but the cyano (while still controllable) is starting to have negative effects on my coral.

Kind of at a loss here guys, any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Fitzreefer]

I am in almost exactly the same place as you a few weeks apart. At this point I am seeing the cyano subside. Not done, but subsiding. I say keep it up, but be conservative on Neonitro dosing. Give it a break here and there. Give it time.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Following.

When my po4 gets stupid, and my nitrates are dumb. I still don't get cyano.

I use higher light than many, much longer as well and have a large coral bio load.

One sumped tank with fuge and One non sumped tank

 

[moseley75]

Following.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

Following.

When my po4 gets stupid, and my nitrates are dumb. I still don't get cyano.

I use higher light than many, much longer as well and have a large coral bio load.

One sumped tank with fuge and One non sumped tank

This is where I'm kind of stumped. I run two Hydra 26s and two 54w T5s on an 11 hour cycle with a three hour peak period. The Hydras peak at 40% @ 15k and the bulbs (ATI aquablue special and blue plus) hit 100... do you know if it's normal for the cyano to go away at night? Because mine does... I guess that would've been pretty pertinent information in the original post.

I am in almost exactly the same place as you a few weeks apart. At this point I am seeing the cyano subside. Not done, but subsiding. I say keep it up, but be conservative on Neonitro dosing. Give it a break here and there. Give it time.

You didn't change anything before it started getting better?

 

[moseley75]

In my research to figure out what the cyano was and how to kill it. I did find out that it goes away during periods of darkness and comes back quickly with the light.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

In my research to figure out what the cyano was and how to kill it. I did find out that it goes away during periods of darkness and comes back quickly with the light.

Well shoot. I thought I was onto something...

 

[Katrina71]

Following.

When my po4 gets stupid, and my nitrates are dumb. I still don't get cyano.

I use higher light than many, much longer as well and have a large coral bio load.

One sumped tank with fuge and One non sumped tank

Show off.

 

[Katrina71]

Mine has been gone for a few days. I'm sure it won't be the last time I get to enjoy it.

 

[reeferfoxx]

The problem I am having now, is that whenever I get them (NO3/PO4) where I want them, 2.5-5 NO3 (Salifert) and ~.03 PO4 (Hanna ULR), I get a cyano outbreak

I'm not quite understanding this? When you get your parameters where you want them? Do your nutrients fluctuate?

I went back and stalked your old posts. Looks like you started with dry rock? I ask because the process of cycling a tank never really finishes. If this were a video game, it would be like leveling up. Level 1 you added water to the tank. Level two the nitrogen cycle begins. So on and so forth. The stages our tanks go through for example consists of the diatom stage, cyano, then hair algae. To the best of my knowledge these are natural stages and shouldn't be interfered with. Though we have that urge or tendency to clean it like picking a scab.

My suggestion would be to let it ride. Let the cyano build up and only clear areas where coral are.

The only other question is, are you disrupting the sand bed or turn the sand over to clear detritus?

 

[Ty Hamatake]

I'm not quite understanding this? When you get your parameters where you want them? Do your nutrients fluctuate?

I went back and stalked your old posts. Looks like you started with dry rock? I ask because the process of cycling a tank never really finishes. If this were a video game, it would be like leveling up. Level 1 you added water to the tank. Level two the nitrogen cycle begins. So on and so forth. The stages our tanks go through for example consists of the diatom stage, cyano, then hair algae. To the best of my knowledge these are natural stages and shouldn't be interfered with. Though we have that urge or tendency to clean it like picking a scab.

My suggestion would be to let it ride. Let the cyano build up and only clear areas where coral are.

The only other question is, are you disrupting the sand bed or turn the sand over to clear detritus?

I have a relatively low bioload (coral beauty, two clowns, sixline wrasse, leopard wrasse, and a banggai) in my 75 gallon tank so it's a bit of a battle to keep my nutrients up. Through normal skimming and and a bi-monthly WC schedule, I end up with a ULNS... so they do fluctuate, but the numbers go down if I don't intervene.

My tank has been up for about a year and a half and all the rock was transferred from another tank that had been running for around a year. I'm fairly confident that my tank has already been through the initial "uglies" and that my current cyano problem is outside the norm.

Lastly, I very rarely disturb the sand bed. I do most of my water changes via the sump, mainly for this purpose. The cyano is still well within my control, I just can't seem to keep detectable nutrients with it popping up...

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Are you running a refugium? Or adding aminos or carbon dosing?
I.e. One competes and one feeds.

I've got a high coral load in both tanks and a fuge in one.

In both tanks I also have a lot of sponges and micro fauna.

Show off.

It's actually confused me (yea easily done)
That despite higher nutrients , cyano is one of the last things I'll get. Better algae growth and green glass yes. Cyano no.

That keeps me on the path of natural competition.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I have a relatively low bioload (coral beauty, two clowns, sixline wrasse, leopard wrasse, and a banggai) in my 75 gallon tank so it's a bit of a battle to keep my nutrients up. Through normal skimming and and a bi-monthly WC schedule, I end up with a ULNS... so they do fluctuate, but the numbers go down if I don't intervene.

My tank has been up for about a year and a half and all the rock was transferred from another tank that had been running for around a year. I'm fairly confident that my tank has already been through the initial "uglies" and that my current cyano problem is outside the norm.

Lastly, I very rarely disturb the sand bed. I do most of my water changes via the sump, mainly for this purpose. The cyano is still well within my control, I just can't seem to keep detectable nutrients with it popping up...

I would attribute the cyano popping up because of different nutrient fluctuations. Like you said, your bioload is low compared to the amount of rock and bacteria. So when you dose po4 or no3 you change the biology of the tank resulting in a different bacterial outbreaks. If those nutrients can stay consistent the beneficial bacteria will eventually out compete the cyano.

My suggestion would be to naturally increase your bioload via fish. Once you are comfortable with the adequate amount of fish, then monitor nutrients. In this time you will see cyano but it will eventually go away. Consistency and stability are key to proper tank chemistry. Otherwise if dosing po4 or no3 is required, don't let those levels drop. They need to stay consistent within positive readings.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yup +1.
It'll be a decision on feeding and export to.
There is clearly a balance the not being met.

A bit on diversity as well. Either bacterial plant micro or coral.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

Are you running a refugium? Or adding aminos or carbon dosing?
I.e. One competes and one feeds.

I've got a high coral load in both tanks and a fuge in one.

In both tanks I also have a lot of sponges and micro fauna.


It's actually confused me (yea easily done)
That despite higher nutrients , cyano is one of the last things I'll get. Better algae growth and green glass yes. Cyano no.

That keeps me on the path of natural competition.

No fuge, aminos, or carbon dosing. My coral load is less than I'd like it to be, but still a good amount of frags (mostly SPS). I have a decent mat of brown/green algae on the back glass that never gets scrapped and I have to clean the other sides maybe once a week...

I would attribute the cyano popping up because of different nutrient fluctuations. Like you said, your bioload is low compared to the amount of rock and bacteria. So when you dose po4 or no3 you change the biology of the tank resulting in a different bacterial outbreaks. If those nutrients can stay consistent the beneficial bacteria will eventually out compete the cyano.

My suggestion would be to naturally increase your bioload via fish. Once you are comfortable with the adequate amount of fish, then monitor nutrients. In this time you will see cyano but it will eventually go away. Consistency and stability are key to proper tank chemistry. Otherwise if dosing po4 or no3 is required, don't let those levels drop. They need to stay consistent within positive readings.

More fish isn't really in the cards for me right now. I have been debating getting an automatic feeder and upping my schedule schedule to compensate. I know this isn't the best of plans, but like I said I don't want more fish as of now (I've been practing the dump and hope method and it bit me on my last addition of leopard wrasses, one of which passed away) so I feel as though more fish wouldn't be a responsible decision. I will keep up with the dosing now and try my hardest to keep it stable. Thank you for the advice!

 

[Ty Hamatake]

This is the only reason I'm currently worried about it...

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Unless there's more, I'm not 100% convinced it's cyano.
The first pic in front of zoas no. Second pic that's dying not surprised to see cyano eating it. Third pic, whaaa?
I do se some on the coral behind it.

The first pic makes me want to say you need more snails. See behind zoas.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is a tricky balancing act between low enough nutrients to prevent algae and cyano, and enough to feed corals.

IMO, many people have been pushing the nutrient target levels higher and higher because they are not feeding organic nutrients to corals as foods, and this risks problem algae.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

Unless there's more, I'm not 100% convinced it's cyano.
The first pic in front of zoas no. Second pic that's dying not surprised to see cyano eating it. Third pic, whaaa?
I do se some on the coral behind it.

The first pic makes me want to say you need more snails. See behind zoas.

There is more, I was just trying to show what I am thinking is the negative impact from whatever this may be. Those do as used to be open and were growing very quickly, now they have stopped growing and won't open up, the chalice used to be a much nicer orange color, and the tissue damage on the birdsnests was where a bunch of cyano had been accumulating (I blew it off with a turkey baster to take the picture). As far as the "film" behind the zoas... that's covering pretty much every inch of my rock... I've scrubbed it with a stiff bristled brush and it doesn't seem to want to go anywhere. I haven't been concerned with it because it doesn't seem to be hurting anyone though.

 

[Ty Hamatake]

It is a tricky balancing act between low enough nutrients to prevent algae and cyano, and enough to feed corals.

IMO, many people have been pushing the nutrient target levels higher and higher because they are not feeding organic nutrients to corals as foods, and this risks problem algae.

Do you feel ~5 ppm NO3 and .03 PO4 to be too high?