Phosphate battle continues

[BIGGUN]

So after neglecting my tank for a year and doing bare minimum and no testing I have a window to try to get things back to reasonable numbers. I knew I had phosphate leaching plus I feed heavy and this manifested itself in loss of coral and poor growth, not to mention that the PO4 NO3 was so far off it wouldn't let chaeto grow and started a little hair algae bloom. I fixed THAT by letting it go even longer until the balance was SO far off that even the hair algae couldn't grow.

When I finally tested the Ca Alk and Mg were fine thought the Alk could come down some (11.2 DKh), but the PO4 tested overscale at 2.50 ppm which is high limit on the Hanna. I dose Lanthanum Chloride for PO4 so I started the treatment. Here are the results so far. Dosing and testing were 2 days apart until it started to test within limits. Then tested and dosed daily.

Test 1 +2.50 dosed .75 ml LC
Test 2 +2.50 dosed .75 ml LC
Test 3 +2.50 dosed .75 ml LC
Test 4 2.49 dosed .75 ml LC
Test 5 2.32 dosed 1.5 ml LC
Test 6 1.79 dosed 1.5 ml LC
Test 7 1.32 dosed 1.5 ml LC
Test 8 0.78 dosed 1.5 ml LC
Test 9 TBD

I expect the numbers to be somewhere around .2 next test unless I feed which seems to skew the test by .1. My plan is to adjust the final dose to reach 0 then test daily to see how much it climbs and build a dosing schedule that keeps it between .2 and .3.

Anyone else playing with phosphate much?

Kevin

 

[loui]

I like to keep mine at around .1 to .2. My SPS didn't really look as vibrant when I went below .1. I have been thinking about trying Lanthanum Chloride, looks like it is really working well for you. Are you dosing it into a filter sock or just putting it directly into the tank?

 

[BIGGUN]

I mix it with 2 liters of RODI then drip that solution into the down pipe to my sump and through a 10 micron filter sock over a 5 to 10 hour period. Dosing THAT much requires a 7" by 18" filter sock to be changed out mid treatment. Hopefully with a maintenance dose I won't need to switch the sock out. I figure if I'm pulling out ~.50 ppm through 2 socks then pulling out <.20 through 1 sock should be fine.

Kevin

 

[Hillbillyreefer]

Be careful with LC, High alk and SPS (if you keep SPS). My alk was a touch higher than yours, I dosed LC dropping phosphate to near zero over about 3 days and had a couple SPS frags RTN overnight on the last day. Since then I’ve upped the phosphate to about .3ppm and have been bringing alk down over the last couple weeks. Things have improved dramatically in the SPS. LPS were unaffected.

 

[BIGGUN]

Be careful with LC, High alk and SPS (if you keep SPS). My alk was a touch higher than yours, I dosed LC dropping phosphate to near zero over about 3 days and had a couple SPS frags RTN overnight on the last day. Since then I’ve upped the phosphate to about .3ppm and have been bringing alk down over the last couple weeks. Things have improved dramatically in the SPS. LPS were unaffected.

Yep. Over the last 2 weeks I've lowered my Alk to 9.52 . I don't plan on keeping the PO4 at undetectable but want to start there to see how much leaching and feeding is adding. I will also be dimming my lights now that the nutrients are lower than they were. I will bring them back up slowly over the next month.

Kevin

 

[bigdrew]

@BIGGUN how is this playing out? Making progress? I am currently having trouble with my new tank in that I cannot seem to keep Chaeto or Gracillaria alive. I think it's because my Nitrate is testing at 0...no matter what I do. When you said your "PO4 NO3 was was so far off" what did you mean? High or low?

 

[BIGGUN]

@BIGGUN how is this playing out? Making progress? I am currently having trouble with my new tank in that I cannot seem to keep Chaeto or Gracillaria alive. I think it's because my Nitrate is testing at 0...no matter what I do. When you said your "PO4 NO3 was was so far off" what did you mean? High or low?

My PO4 was 4.0 ppm (guesstimate), with nitrates at 20ish. Testing PO4 with Hanna checker and NO3 with Red Sea. I couldn't stop my chaeto from melting. I started getting hair algae once my Phosphates dropped below 1. Now I am trying to control phosphates with BRS High Capacity GFO and have it bouncing between .3 and .5 with 12 tablespoons on about 100 gallon system. This needs changed weekly due to leaching rock. I am now able to keep chaeto in my sump without it melting and as my phosphates dropped below .5 the hair algae is gone.

Hope that helps.

What kits are you testing NO3 and PO4 with?

 

[bigdrew]

Thanks for the info @BIGGUN

Using Redsea’s NO4 kit and I just acquired the Red Sea PO4 kit tonight. Going to test as soon as I get the kiddos to bed.

My nitrates are at 0, so I’m thinking the issue has to be PO4. I just left my LFS and they explained some sample tanks that they are running and what they are doing. I think I have a plan in place. We’ll see if it pans out.

But, in short, the objective is to stop doing so many water changes (I do 1 per week @ about 7% of water volume), test PO4 and then use the Red Sea NO3/PO4 “reducer” to bring things back in line over a period of time. The water changes seem to help with the PO4 issue (at least visually with the macro algae. Like I said, I just got a test kit) but the low Nitrate is an issue and the water changes aren’t going to solve that...rather, they’ll make it worse!

 

[bigdrew]

PS. I’m also leaving my skimmer off for a few days.

 

[BIGGUN]

Did the shop back your test results? The RedSea tests for NO2 and NO3, so make sure your following the right set of directions.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Kevin

 

[bigdrew]

Thanks Kevin. PO4 just tested at .08ppm. Nitrate still at 0. I didn’t think to have the store certify my tests...good idea. I’ll have to ask later this week and bring them some water.

If Nitrate is at 0 and PO4 is at .08, then I am really not too far off? Those readings shouldn’t hurt macro algae too much, at least. My skimmer has been off for 24 hours. I am going to leave it off for another 24 and then re-test Nitrate.

Hmmm....

 

[BIGGUN]

How new is your tank? What kind of fish and feeding do you have and do?

 

[clm65]

What brand of LC are you using?

 

[BIGGUN]

I am using SeaKlear Phosphate Remover for Pools. Administered as stated in the post above to not cause fast swings or Alk drop.

 

[bigdrew]

@BIGGUN tank is about 3 months old. I have 1 Tomini, 1 oscellaris clown, 1 flame hawk and 1 African flameback. I have 1 mushroom frag. Feeding once a day and switching between frozen and pellet every other day. I tried feeding a bit heavier to increase Nitrate, but it didn’t seem to work much.

Another hunch that just hit me: water temperature. I have a digital thermometer, but could the water being too warm have an impact? It hovers around 79 - 81 at any given point in time. I set my heater to 75, since the pumps and so forth seem to provide enough heat.

Also, could flow through the sump be a problem? maybe I could up the return pump speed or add a power head to the sump?

 

[Dual40IM]

I

Thanks for the info @BIGGUN

Using Redsea’s NO4 kit and I just acquired the Red Sea PO4 kit tonight. Going to test as soon as I get the kiddos to bed.

My nitrates are at 0, so I’m thinking the issue has to be PO4. I just left my LFS and they explained some sample tanks that they are running and what they are doing. I think I have a plan in place. We’ll see if it pans out.

But, in short, the objective is to stop doing so many water changes (I do 1 per week @ about 7% of water volume), test PO4 and then use the Red Sea NO3/PO4 “reducer” to bring things back in line over a period of time. The water changes seem to help with the PO4 issue (at least visually with the macro algae. Like I said, I just got a test kit) but the low Nitrate is an issue and the water changes aren’t going to solve that...rather, they’ll make it worse!

Was just talking with someone else about Po4 and No3. My 25 gallon lagoon had Po4 level of .273 using Hanna ULR and No3 level of 0 using Salifert. I started dosing Brightwell Neo Nitro for N03 and surprisingly when No3 began to rise my Po4 came down. Now I have 5ppm No3 and .049 ppm Po4. Just wanted to give you a heads up that you may be able to lower your Po4 by just getting g some No3 in the system. I read somewhere on R2R about how one needs the other to balance out. Just my findings hope it might help.

 

[bigdrew]

@Dual40IM appreciate the perspective! That makes me think proceeding with the skimmer staying off is going to help...we’ll see tomorrow night when I test again.

 

[clm65]

I am using SeaKlear Phosphate Remover for Pools. Administered as stated in the post above to not cause fast swings or Alk drop.

Thanks for the reply. So you were dosing 0.75 - 1.5 ml every other day on a 100 gallon (total volume) system until you got PO4 under control, correct? My phosphates are similar to what yours were, and I have a little over 200 gallons total. So is it fair to assume I would dose 1.5 - 3.0 ml every other day? I only have a few soft corals. No SPS.

 

[BIGGUN]

@BIGGUN tank is about 3 months old. I have 1 Tomini, 1 oscellaris clown, 1 flame hawk and 1 African flameback. I have 1 mushroom frag. Feeding once a day and switching between frozen and pellet every other day. I tried feeding a bit heavier to increase Nitrate, but it didn’t seem to work much.

Another hunch that just hit me: water temperature. I have a digital thermometer, but could the water being too warm have an impact? It hovers around 79 - 81 at any given point in time. I set my heater to 75, since the pumps and so forth seem to provide enough heat.

Also, could flow through the sump be a problem? maybe I could up the return pump speed or add a power head to the sump?

Young tank, not a lot of Bioload, so low nutrients aren't surprising. Have you gone through a Cyno bloom yet? You could just keep going at the rate you are and not worry about trying to grow Chaeto yet until your nutrient levels demand export or at least can support macro growth.

The temp should be fine for Chaeto. I do run a HIGH turnover in my sump and still have a powerhead to tumble the Chaeto, so that may help.

Thanks for the reply. So you were dosing 0.75 - 1.5 ml every other day on a 100 gallon (total volume) system until you got PO4 under control, correct? My phosphates are similar to what yours were, and I have a little over 200 gallons total. So is it fair to assume I would dose 1.5 - 3.0 ml every other day? I only have a few soft corals. No SPS.

I would start at 1.0 dosed the way I did with heavy dilution, into a turbulence and through a filter 5-10 micron sock. Then test the day after each dose(8-12 hours). Test both PO4 and Alk. If Alk is dropping significantly more than usual LC is probably not diluted enough, the area isn't getting enough water exchange, or your PO4 is 0. Then once you see the PO4 dropping you can determine your dosing regimen instead of guessing.

Hope that helps.

 

[bigdrew]

Thanks for the ideas.

Went through a big diatom bloom and a hair algae bloom with some cyano slime...which left and now has come back and kind of stayed, but very lightly and only in the sump. Display shows no signs of it. I cycled with live sand. Used dry rock. Perhaps that is still forthcoming? I thought I waited awhile for that and it came and went, but perhaps I was wrong...