Planning to upgrade, how to do it best

[Common Blevil]

So i have i 15 gallon tank(easy, relatively no maintenance, no skimmer, no sump, white light), and my dormitory administration allowed me to have the tank "as big as i can provide for and not obstruct my roommates space". So I'm planning to make the same tank, but bigger, either going for 35 g (126 l) or 40 g (160 l) tank. The first is 31.5*13.7*17.7 inches(80*35*45 cm). It is ok, but smaller and i don't like it's footprint, too small and too high, fish will not like this i think. The 40 g is better, because it is 40*15.7*15.7(100*40*40cm), so bigger footprint and more place for territory for the fish. But the big sturdy table i have is only 31.5*31.5 inches(80*80 cm). I've planned to buy a piece of chipboard to compensate and to put on a table under a tank(in addition to a soft aquarium mat). Do you think I is a good idea long term? I don't think anything will go wrong, I've seen wooden stands for freshwater having a platform on top go a few inches on either side, this is basically the same, but DIY.



Also about moving the tank. I already have the sand, it's aquaforest bio sand. Bought it when starting, didn't like and put away for a year. Now it is washed from mineral dust and is waiting to be ressurected with provided bottles and my sand from the tank(i will wash it from detritus but I can't afford not to reuse live sand)



Will it be ok to do the move in one day, aka i put my 15 gallon under that table, put a 40/35 on the table, make a salt mix with 90% aquaforest reef and 10% reef crystals, put dry sand in there wait a day or half a day and then add everything from 15 gallon?

Or is it better to have 15 gallon stay under the table for longer, maybe a few days to a week and add everything gradually? I will be doing this all in summer, so I'm not scared of something getting too cold.



Also, i will need to buy a lot of dry rock, to make cave network and crevasses, because I'm trying to experiment with pairing fish, such as chrysiptera damsels, tailspot blennies, or even flameback angels, and they should be fine in a long tank of that size with lots of strategically put rockwork. The thing is, LFS have real ocean dry rock (not some kind of clay based poop from a brand, rocks from the ocean), but they got their prices double since last year, and the rock looks like literal pieces of lava, but white(no little crevasses , just a piece of rock with some pores) . So I'm thinking marko rock, not so good, heavier, but has crevices for microfauna and cheap. But even marko rock is going to cost some money for that size of setup. Will it be ok to add it a few month in as i will have the money? I'd like to transfer the livestock to the new tank as fast as possible and not wait additional few months to have money for rocks and then do the transfer.



Also i read a lot of people struggling to keep their phosphates above 0 with marco rock, and i already have troubles with phosphates caused by my macro, softies and dino+cyano bloom(i think reef crystals is the reason, never had dinos and cyano with aquaforest reef salt, this high alkalinity is the bane of my existence), so how true is phosphate absorbing capabilities of marco and how much i should worry? That's probably all, if i will remember anything else i will add it.

 

[EgotisticObeseChihuahua]

The stand is worrisome but depending on how strong the base is then it should be fine. I wouldn’t stretch the budget for new sand because when you move the sand or mix it up then you are releasing a lot of dormant stuff that can mess with the waters chemistry. That’s why I wouldn’t recommend using the same sand. It would be best to start anew with the sand if possible. Macro rock is what I used and I have trouble keeping my phosphates down, so i never experienced Any issues with it. (I do feed pretty heavy) though I imagine it shouldn’t be an issue with your plans for more fish. If you have the time and patience then it would be best to cycle the desired tank until it has enough nitrifying bacteria to hold a stable cycle, so that your livestock will be a lot less stressed during the transfer.

 

[Common Blevil]

The stand is worrisome but depending on how strong the base is then it should be fine. I wouldn’t stretch the budget for new sand because when you move the sand or mix it up then you are releasing a lot of dormant stuff that can mess with the waters chemistry. That’s why I wouldn’t recommend using the same sand. It would be best to start anew with the sand if possible. Macro rock is what I used and I have trouble keeping my phosphates down, so i never experienced Any issues with it. (I do feed pretty heavy) though I imagine it shouldn’t be an issue with your plans for more fish. If you have the time and patience then it would be best to cycle the desired tank until it has enough nitrifying bacteria to hold a stable cycle, so that your livestock will be a lot less stressed during the transfer.

Thanks for the answer. The "stand base" itself is really strong, it has 2 inch thick metal legs, 1.5 inch thick frame, which has 1.5 inch thick chipboard on top. That's the reason I'm planning to have a bigger tank, if it was an ordinary office table, the 15 gallon would be the max volume before the table would collapse

The sand itself houses a lot of microfauna, my shrimp goby was able to survive off it alone for a few months until started coming out from the rocks, so I want to transfer some of it. Also there are no visible anaerobic zones in the sand, that are the real problem in such situations. That said, i don't want to just take it out and put in the new tank, i will wash it with tank water a few times, to remove the detritus. Also the sand itself was live oolithic sand and the same sand but dried, I can't find it anymore and i want that microfauna.

About cycling, I don't want to remove old rock, i still have a few pieces of resurrected real dry ocean rock and a crapton of macroalgae, so i think the main problem will be keeping enough nutrients, and not be afraid of them. Also, if buying some rock before the start, would it be wise to cycle it in a bucket with light and some rock from the tank? Light for the algaes to start appearing, the faster they appear, the faster they go away. Also, i think my newly added segmented blenny would be glad to have some algae.


I think for now i may not wait like a month for cycling, but add everything gradually. Put the tank, make the saltwater , wait. Wash the live and dry sand, mix them together, wait. After the muck(if any) will be filtered out, I'll add the live rock and livestock.

Still waiting for advices)

 

[brandon429]

That isn't a safe plan we have examples of sandbed waste killing systems. It's stressful because you're upwelling stratified waste and putting the new layers in a system that thrives on cleanliness

Your sand offered no sustenance for that fish. If you stopped feeding him totally he would die, because tank sand sifted over and over is devoid save for incidental bugs. This plan brings on invasions at a high rate

If you want a safe tank transfer, don't customize:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

Rinse the sand totally, using tap water. The goby sifts because that's its design: it isn't getting much food at all from eating waste. It eats tank provided food, don't value anything in your sandbed. The live rock reseeds the new sand, not the old sand, transfer none. Do opposite of your plan for max safety and outcome.

All jobs there are instant skip cycle transfers, 350 or so completed inspectable jobs. Don't transfer one teaspoon of old sand, it is potential harm and six bugs the live rock would reseed anyway. Not worth the risk to preserve. The reason there's only one tank transfer thread available, and not two: only full rinsing works without occasional massive crashes, and nobody wants to run a thread where someone's ten thousand dollar reef dies and then you have to account for that in public as the thread maestro. It's not possible to customize the approach and get a safer outcome than that above.

You'd make use of your clean sand by feeding the new version tank better than one with half maxed out old sand, and this renewed feeding is what benefits the goby. It isn't in transferring waste- that only seems like a benefit: it isn't. Not one gram of old sand installed is ironically the safest transfer you can make. Or results will never skew because the risk is in the detritus.

 

[SantaMonica]

Wish I could have had a tank in my dorm. Lots of parties but no tanks.

 

[Common Blevil]

That isn't a safe plan we have examples of sandbed waste killing systems. It's stressful because you're upwelling stratified waste and putting the new layers in a system that thrives on cleanliness

Your sand offered no sustenance for that fish. If you stopped feeding him totally he would die, because tank sand sifted over and over is devoid save for incidental bugs. This plan brings on invasions at a high rate

If you want a safe tank transfer, don't customize:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

Rinse the sand totally, using tap water. The goby sifts because that's its design: it isn't getting much food at all from eating waste. It eats tank provided food, don't value anything in your sandbed. The live rock reseeds the new sand, not the old sand, transfer none. Do opposite of your plan for max safety and outcome.

All jobs there are instant skip cycle transfers, 350 or so completed inspectable jobs. Don't transfer one teaspoon of old sand, it is potential harm and six bugs the live rock would reseed anyway. Not worth the risk to preserve. The reason there's only one tank transfer thread available, and not two: only full rinsing works without occasional massive crashes, and nobody wants to run a thread where someone's ten thousand dollar reef dies and then you have to account for that in public as the thread maestro. It's not possible to customize the approach and get a safer outcome than that above.

You'd make use of your clean sand by feeding the new version tank better than one with half maxed out old sand, and this renewed feeding is what benefits the goby. It isn't in transferring waste- that only seems like a benefit: it isn't. Not one gram of old sand installed is ironically the safest transfer you can make. Or results will never skew because the risk is in the detritus.

I wanted to write a long rant about how i disagree on some aspects, but decided not to and keep it relatively short.

I did sand transfer on a young system before and nothing bad happened. This system will be year old (young) when i will do the transfer, so i don't think about something bad happening. I even did a rescape a few months ago, disturbing all the sandbed in the tank, like mixing it a few times, moving it around, etc. Nothing except already ill cleaner shrimp died, corals even puffed up more for some time. Yes, water was cloudy for a day and a half.

But i agree that transferring sand from a bigger and older system is not really a good idea.

Also about my shrimp goby. I he wasn't eating the waste, because shrimp gobies are predators, but pods, small burrowing crustaceans and worms were keeping him alive while he was hiding and not taking any food. Granted, he didn't eat animals only from the sand, but he wasn't coming out from the rocks much either. Also the sand was live and i don't want to start sterile as much as possible. Didn't have great success with such starting.


But we'll see, maybe i will be wrong and something bad will happen, who knows?)

 

[brandon429]

how do the patterned results there influence your final decision

-that doesnt mean a custom job can't work, lots of moves are done custom. could a custom system run fifty pages tho

you're choosing degrees of safety that's all. imo the above results can't be made better.

*nano reefs with easier fish loads can vary more. that thread above is written for all reefs to copy, with ultra sensitive fish. that's why it seems restrictive, but gauge the results in pattern for true takeaway imo

 

[Common Blevil]

That isn't a safe plan we have examples of sandbed waste killing systems. It's stressful because you're upwelling stratified waste and putting the new layers in a system that thrives on cleanliness

Your sand offered no sustenance for that fish. If you stopped feeding him totally he would die, because tank sand sifted over and over is devoid save for incidental bugs. This plan brings on invasions at a high rate

If you want a safe tank transfer, don't customize:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

Rinse the sand totally, using tap water. The goby sifts because that's its design: it isn't getting much food at all from eating waste. It eats tank provided food, don't value anything in your sandbed. The live rock reseeds the new sand, not the old sand, transfer none. Do opposite of your plan for max safety and outcome.

All jobs there are instant skip cycle transfers, 350 or so completed inspectable jobs. Don't transfer one teaspoon of old sand, it is potential harm and six bugs the live rock would reseed anyway. Not worth the risk to preserve. The reason there's only one tank transfer thread available, and not two: only full rinsing works without occasional massive crashes, and nobody wants to run a thread where someone's ten thousand dollar reef dies and then you have to account for that in public as the thread maestro. It's not possible to customize the approach and get a safer outcome than that above.

You'd make use of your clean sand by feeding the new version tank better than one with half maxed out old sand, and this renewed feeding is what benefits the goby. It isn't in transferring waste- that only seems like a benefit: it isn't. Not one gram of old sand installed is ironically the safest transfer you can make. Or results will never skew because the risk is in the detritus.

Guess what, I've learnt to loathe the sand so much i will switch to dolomite gravel when i will upgrade) I understood that its is probably the sand that is the cause of like 90% of my tank problems, and i also don't like when fish throw it everywhere. So no sand transfer, not in a million years...

 

[Common Blevil]

I will make a transfer this week, on my birthday. The tank will be 30 gallons or 112 l. The same dimensions as 35 gallons i planned just a bit less width. I will use dolomite gravel as substrate at the front and at the back there will be lot's of caves and probably just rock on top of glass, no sand or gravel. The tank will keep it's aquascape mostly, with most rockwork being at the left back side and no rockwork being at the right front side, so i will be able to view it from the front and the side(aka from my bed). Will share photos after i will do it.

 

[Common Blevil]

Also the inhabitants now are juvenile starry blenny who is the king of the tank, 2 azure damsels (male and female) who are very cowardly and outgoing at the same time , 2 wheeleri gobies and their shrimp, 1 clown goby who i don't really count as a fish because of it's size and temperament. The funny thing is, damsels being in the tank full of caves and being in a pair seem to be very peaceful. One time the male tried to bully the smallest shrimp goby, who was smaller than him, got bit in the butt by a commonly very shy goby and swam away. Damsels are almost fully grown. I think most of the time these beautiful fish cause problems when put in tanks with small amounts or bad hiding spots and when they are alone. Starry blenny causes more trouble if i gonna be honest and he(or maybe a she, considering fin shape) is pretty chill anyway. All these fish are fine for 15 g but i wouldn't keep a starry in such small volume long term

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

So i have i 15 gallon tank(easy, relatively no maintenance, no skimmer, no sump, white light), and my dormitory administration allowed me to have the tank "as big as i can provide for and not obstruct my roommates space". So I'm planning to make the same tank, but bigger, either going for 35 g (126 l) or 40 g (160 l) tank. The first is 31.5*13.7*17.7 inches(80*35*45 cm). It is ok, but smaller and i don't like it's footprint, too small and too high, fish will not like this i think. The 40 g is better, because it is 40*15.7*15.7(100*40*40cm), so bigger footprint and more place for territory for the fish. But the big sturdy table i have is only 31.5*31.5 inches(80*80 cm). I've planned to buy a piece of chipboard to compensate and to put on a table under a tank(in addition to a soft aquarium mat). Do you think I is a good idea long term? I don't think anything will go wrong, I've seen wooden stands for freshwater having a platform on top go a few inches on either side, this is basically the same, but DIY.



Also about moving the tank. I already have the sand, it's aquaforest bio sand. Bought it when starting, didn't like and put away for a year. Now it is washed from mineral dust and is waiting to be ressurected with provided bottles and my sand from the tank(i will wash it from detritus but I can't afford not to reuse live sand)



Will it be ok to do the move in one day, aka i put my 15 gallon under that table, put a 40/35 on the table, make a salt mix with 90% aquaforest reef and 10% reef crystals, put dry sand in there wait a day or half a day and then add everything from 15 gallon?

Or is it better to have 15 gallon stay under the table for longer, maybe a few days to a week and add everything gradually? I will be doing this all in summer, so I'm not scared of something getting too cold.



Also, i will need to buy a lot of dry rock, to make cave network and crevasses, because I'm trying to experiment with pairing fish, such as chrysiptera damsels, tailspot blennies, or even flameback angels, and they should be fine in a long tank of that size with lots of strategically put rockwork. The thing is, LFS have real ocean dry rock (not some kind of clay based poop from a brand, rocks from the ocean), but they got their prices double since last year, and the rock looks like literal pieces of lava, but white(no little crevasses , just a piece of rock with some pores) . So I'm thinking marko rock, not so good, heavier, but has crevices for microfauna and cheap. But even marko rock is going to cost some money for that size of setup. Will it be ok to add it a few month in as i will have the money? I'd like to transfer the livestock to the new tank as fast as possible and not wait additional few months to have money for rocks and then do the transfer.



Also i read a lot of people struggling to keep their phosphates above 0 with marco rock, and i already have troubles with phosphates caused by my macro, softies and dino+cyano bloom(i think reef crystals is the reason, never had dinos and cyano with aquaforest reef salt, this high alkalinity is the bane of my existence), so how true is phosphate absorbing capabilities of marco and how much i should worry? That's probably all, if i will remember anything else i will add it.

Can I suggest that you dont use any dry rock at all in the new setup? The parameter swings will be noticeable if you go that way. If money is prohibitive, I totally understand.

 

[Common Blevil]

Can I suggest that you dont use any dry rock at all in the new setup? The parameter swings will be noticeable if you go that way. If money is prohibitive, I totally understand.

Dry rock is no longer dry, it is green and has corals and macroalgae on it. It was curing in a tub with saltwater for 2 months. I still expect some new tank problems but not that many of them. If i was able to acquire good real live rock, or at least live rock that is not aiptasia covered heavenly goodness i would've used it. But unfortunately there wasn't any normal live rock available locally, and the only one i could find was either dead and I would need to cure it for a billion years to not crash my tank or it would cost as much as my tank and it's only for a slightly porous coralline covered boulder. Plus don't forget that I'm a student and i don't exactly have a lot of money. I just ordered a jebao gyre for my birthday and if it wasn't a present from my relatives i would've been saving for this gyre probably for 3-4 month's. And jebaos are what you people call cheap here...

 

[NCsalt]

I had a 20 gallon high when I was in college but it was in an apartment where i had my own room a kitchen and a shared bathroom. I had space for my five gallon buckets as well. I used to buy Rodi back then but it adds up quick. Have you thought about where you will mix or store water? I have a 40 breeder currently and i make 10 gallons a week for routine maintenance 5 gallon water change and 5 gallon evaporation topoff.

 

[Common Blevil]

I had a 20 gallon high when I was in college but it was in an apartment where i had my own room a kitchen and a shared bathroom. I had space for my five gallon buckets as well. I used to buy Rodi back then but it adds up quick. Have you thought about where you will mix or store water? I have a 40 breeder currently and i make 10 gallons a week for routine maintenance 5 gallon water change and 5 gallon evaporation topoff.

You won't believe me, but I'm already have 3 10 gallon containers and i have place to hide them all. One is the temporary aquarium that has the live rock and saltwater, another has the new saltwater mixing in it, other is empty for now but it's where i will put the water, rocks and inhabitants from the 15 gallon while i will be scaping it. And i have four 5 gallon buckets. I was the first person that was in the dorm so i took the best place in there, as it's said - the early bird gets the worm.) Dorm mates did not care that much because they live in dorms temporarily and I'm planning to live there until graduation.

 

[Common Blevil]

You won't believe me, but I'm already have 3 10 gallon containers and i have place to hide them all. One is the temporary aquarium that has the live rock and saltwater, another has the new saltwater mixing in it, other is empty for now but it's where i will put the water, rocks and inhabitants from the 15 gallon while i will be scaping it. And i have four 5 gallon buckets. I was the first person that was in the dorm so i took the best place in there, as it's said - the early bird gets the worm.) Dorm mates did not care that much because they live in dorms temporarily and I'm planning to live there until graduation.

The main thing was, i just understood that having a 30 gallon won't change anything that much space wise, but will add more fun to my life because it will be objectively better than 15 gallon. Because well, the space i have won't change at all - the reason being all the buckets and other stuff existed way before i got a 30 g(it's now standing on the table next to 15 g waiting for tomorrow birthday start-up) and it doesn't really obstruct or clog my space that much.
But 30 gallon is the max size of the tank i would out there, bigger tank would've caused a lot of headaches literally and figuratively. The only thing that will change is that i will no longer be able to put stuff on the sides of the table the tank is standing on, but there is a lot of space in front and behind the tank and i already started teaching myself to behave like i have a 30 gallon there just to understand if i will be comfortable, and it's fine.

 

[Common Blevil]

I forgot to take a photo before, but now I'm cleaning the room and preparing for tomorrow so i took some photos of my part of the room and what i had underneath my tables.

 

[Common Blevil]

Transfer successful. The only sad thing is the female damselfish died in a tub because of a rock or a plastic container in which i put gobies and pistol shrimp, but i will go and buy 2-3 females either tomorrow or in a month. I have made so much caves the fish just teleport from one part of the rockwork to another... Also 30 gallons looks like a sea compared to 15 gallons. But i understood that 60 gallons will probably be the max size tank i will want to keep, 30 already seems like a lot...