Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer

[Ponraj A]

I have it pretty low.

It is a regulated with a ball valve on manifold, so if I put it too low, the flow "eventually" stops. Even when I wasn't carbon dosing... not from getting clogged, but the flow just stops going IN...

To speed up the process if possible set the rector output as 1drop/sec if not possible you can increase the carbon doing and please keep in mind to check the reactor output after three days. If there is a reduction in nitrate then don’t increase the carbon dosing further.

 

[1mbrews8]

Still no reduction yet ;0(

 

[lany2008]

Respects to Donovan from China！

 

[steeb]

RIP Donovan.

I built one and have been dosing vvs for awhile. I stopped dosing main tank and have been dosing 30 ml in the denitrator. I have it at 1 drip / sec but I don't see a reduction yet. My nitrates were at the highest prob 100+ ppm and now they are under 80ppm. I am hoping this will lower them to zero.

 

[lany2008]

RIP Donovan.

I built one and have been dosing vvs for awhile. I stopped dosing main tank and have been dosing 30 ml in the denitrator. I have it at 1 drip / sec but I don't see a reduction yet. My nitrates were at the highest prob 100+ ppm and now they are under 80ppm. I am hoping this will lower them to zero.

It takes at least two weeks to for Nitrifying bacteria to grow up.

 

[Afterburner]

I am thinking of making a very unique version of this thing after reading the entire blog and hearing of the issues associated with clogging over time or over dosing. From what I can tell, Donovan's version uses the basic concept of a coil reactor, but he made it a gravity flow though media version so he could inject VSV or any other carbon substitute. This is the real genius of his design (carbon injection to supercharge the aerobic bacteria). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Couldn't this design be pressurized and just inject the VSV at the inlet to a dedicated pump? I was surprised that nobody mentioned this anywhere in the blog? This would work well for an external implementation.

I understand that for his particular DIY, he wanted to save the cost of a dedicated pump, and the simplicity of his design is very cost effective, but I personally don't mind a few extra bucks to hopefully reduce the clogging issues..... he even mentioned eventually building one with the ability to back flush, but I don't know if he ever had the chance to build it.

My plan is to build what I am calling a Suitcase Pressurized Nitrate Reactor (SPNR). It will be made of acrylic and basically look like a suitcase (rectangular box) with internal baffles to force the water to snake through the device. It will have only two connections (input and output). The device will be completely sealed with a valve on the return side to limit the flow and slightly pressurize the unit. This way there will be no way for oxygen to get in the aerobic side, and it can be easily back flushed if ever necessary. I think this would be the most compact implementation and could be located externally from the sump. Carbon will be injected with a dosing device at the inlet to the pump that pressurizes the system.

I have about a 100 gallon system and was wondering what size I will need to make it work adequately . If any of you could provide me with some guidance here it will be helpful since black acrylic is not cheap. What I need from as many of you that are willing to share information with me is the following:
Total System Water Volume (Tank, Sump, Fuge, etc.)
Size of Donovan Reactor
Diameter of tubes
Total length (both tubes added together from inlet to output)
Type of Carbon dosed (NoPox, vodka, VSV, Vinegar, etc)
Amount of Carbon dosed daily
Please only provide information for systems that have been implemented you feel are the right size for your environment.
This will help me design something that may meet my needs.
At this point, NoPoX dosing has reduced my Nitrates, but I would like to build this so I can reduce my carbon dosing over time hopefully to zero due to the dynamic growth of bacteria to accommodate changes.

Thank you.

 

[davidwillis]

I am still reading through this thread, on page 30. But I had a thought about high phosphates. Once you get your nitrates down to zero, why not add some nitrate back (just a little), to allow for the removal of phosphates as well. Would this work? How would you go about adding nitrate?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I am thinking of making a very unique version of this thing after reading the entire blog and hearing of the issues associated with clogging over time or over dosing. From what I can tell, Donovan's version uses the basic concept of a coil reactor, but he made it a gravity flow though media version so he could inject VSV or any other carbon substitute. This is the real genius of his design (carbon injection to supercharge the aerobic bacteria). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Couldn't this design be pressurized and just inject the VSV at the inlet to a dedicated pump? I was surprised that nobody mentioned this anywhere in the blog? This would work well for an external implementation.

I understand that for his particular DIY, he wanted to save the cost of a dedicated pump, and the simplicity of his design is very cost effective, but I personally don't mind a few extra bucks to hopefully reduce the clogging issues..... he even mentioned eventually building one with the ability to back flush, but I don't know if he ever had the chance to build it.

My plan is to build what I am calling a Suitcase Pressurized Nitrate Reactor (SPNR). It will be made of acrylic and basically look like a suitcase (rectangular box) with internal baffles to force the water to snake through the device. It will have only two connections (input and output). The device will be completely sealed with a valve on the return side to limit the flow and slightly pressurize the unit. This way there will be no way for oxygen to get in the aerobic side, and it can be easily back flushed if ever necessary. I think this would be the most compact implementation and could be located externally from the sump. Carbon will be injected with a dosing device at the inlet to the pump that pressurizes the system.

I have about a 100 gallon system and was wondering what size I will need to make it work adequately . If any of you could provide me with some guidance here it will be helpful since black acrylic is not cheap. What I need from as many of you that are willing to share information with me is the following:
Total System Water Volume (Tank, Sump, Fuge, etc.)
Size of Donovan Reactor
Diameter of tubes
Total length (both tubes added together from inlet to output)
Type of Carbon dosed (NoPox, vodka, VSV, Vinegar, etc)
Amount of Carbon dosed daily
Please only provide information for systems that have been implemented you feel are the right size for your environment.
This will help me design something that may meet my needs.
At this point, NoPoX dosing has reduced my Nitrates, but I would like to build this so I can reduce my carbon dosing over time hopefully to zero due to the dynamic growth of bacteria to accommodate changes.

Thank you.

I would definitely have some kind of pre filter before water enters into the suitcase style system your building. I'm more familiar with sulfur denitrator, but I'm familiar with sulfur denitrators, but both systems have one thing in common if you don't filter the water going into them with time you will have issues.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I am thinking of making a very unique version of this thing after reading the entire blog and hearing of the issues associated with clogging over time or over dosing. From what I can tell, Donovan's version uses the basic concept of a coil reactor, but he made it a gravity flow though media version so he could inject VSV or any other carbon substitute. This is the real genius of his design (carbon injection to supercharge the aerobic bacteria). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Couldn't this design be pressurized and just inject the VSV at the inlet to a dedicated pump? I was surprised that nobody mentioned this anywhere in the blog? This would work well for an external implementation.

I understand that for his particular DIY, he wanted to save the cost of a dedicated pump, and the simplicity of his design is very cost effective, but I personally don't mind a few extra bucks to hopefully reduce the clogging issues..... he even mentioned eventually building one with the ability to back flush, but I don't know if he ever had the chance to build it.

My plan is to build what I am calling a Suitcase Pressurized Nitrate Reactor (SPNR). It will be made of acrylic and basically look like a suitcase (rectangular box) with internal baffles to force the water to snake through the device. It will have only two connections (input and output). The device will be completely sealed with a valve on the return side to limit the flow and slightly pressurize the unit. This way there will be no way for oxygen to get in the aerobic side, and it can be easily back flushed if ever necessary. I think this would be the most compact implementation and could be located externally from the sump. Carbon will be injected with a dosing device at the inlet to the pump that pressurizes the system.

I have about a 100 gallon system and was wondering what size I will need to make it work adequately . If any of you could provide me with some guidance here it will be helpful since black acrylic is not cheap. What I need from as many of you that are willing to share information with me is the following:
Total System Water Volume (Tank, Sump, Fuge, etc.)
Size of Donovan Reactor
Diameter of tubes
Total length (both tubes added together from inlet to output)
Type of Carbon dosed (NoPox, vodka, VSV, Vinegar, etc)
Amount of Carbon dosed daily
Please only provide information for systems that have been implemented you feel are the right size for your environment.
This will help me design something that may meet my needs.
At this point, NoPoX dosing has reduced my Nitrates, but I would like to build this so I can reduce my carbon dosing over time hopefully to zero due to the dynamic growth of bacteria to accommodate changes.

Thank you.

Definitely interested in the results of this!

 

[skuller]

Hello Guys

One question on this...I started mine 2 weeks ago, with no reduction on Nitrates yet. My actual NO3 are 5ppm and PO4 0.
Until yesterday NO3 where the same on the main tank and on the exit of the reactor...always 5ppm.

Today I started to test 25ppm of Nitrates on the exit of the reactor..is it possible that the reactor started to cycle?


I tested twice with the same Salifert test kit..and the results are:

4ppm on main tank
25ppm on the exit of the reactor.


Is this normal?

 

[Afterburner]

Update on the Suitcase version (SPNR).
Since I did not get any information on working systems from my request, I went back in the blog and did some calculations on volume of systems that others built that worked for their size respective tanks and came up with a formula to define the size I would need for my 100gal system. The calculations came out to less than the ultimate size I decided to make this thing. I figured approximately 20%+ extra would be good in case I add a large display refugium in the future. I cut the Acrylic so that the SPNR will end up approximately 12" x 12" x 3" and should be able to handle a loaded take up to 150 gallons. This design is modular, so simply adding additional SPNR units in parallel should be able to handle much larger systems requiring very little space. Of course, this is all speculative.

Now the first issue....... My wife planned a trip to the Galapagos islands that leaves this week (so I can look a stuff I can't bring home for my tank), then I have a ton of other trips planned with buddies hunting and boating for most of December. I will not have a chance to glue this thing together until early next year. The good news is that my DT nitrates went to zero by just dosing NOPOX for a few weeks, and have stayed extremely low even though I turned off the NOPOX. I was sort of hoping it would return to at least a moderate level so I can test on my personal system. Who knows, after all the neglect my tank will endure with my future travels I might get my wish.

I have not given up, just delayed my experiment.

 

[Afterburner]

I would definitely have some kind of pre filter before water enters into the suitcase style system your building. I'm more familiar with sulfur denitrator, but I'm familiar with sulfur denitrators, but both systems have one thing in common if you don't filter the water going into them with time you will have issues.

This is a good idea. I am planning on taking the water from my sump which is after the mechanical filter (sock), but a sponge filter might be a good idea, plus I can use the sponge to hold my carbon dosing tube in place. Because the SPNR is pressurized, I should be able to backflush it anyway. If this thing works, I may build one in clear acrylic so I can see where any clogs are happening, and also add some points where I can extract the water from along the way to test and find out exactly where the anaerobic bacteria start for future tuning.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Hello Guys

One question on this...I started mine 2 weeks ago, with no reduction on Nitrates yet. My actual NO3 are 5ppm and PO4 0.
Until yesterday NO3 where the same on the main tank and on the exit of the reactor...always 5ppm.

Today I started to test 25ppm of Nitrates on the exit of the reactor..is it possible that the reactor started to cycle?


I tested twice with the same Salifert test kit..and the results are:

4ppm on main tank
25ppm on the exit of the reactor.


Is this normal?

Can you add a video of effluent coming out of denitrator

 

[im_jeremy5]

Wow,
I have spent the last week reading all 49 pages of this thread. That was a rollercoaster of emotions. Donovan, I regret never having known you, but I think you have greatly influenced many people that share your passion for reefing. I could only be so lucky as to do the same. RIP Donovan.

That being said, there seems to be a lot of information scattered throughout this thread and not gathered in one place. Bear in mind, my reactor is not built yet, so this is just a gathering of information from what seems to be a path to success:

Why/How it works:
With the slow flow rate, the first tower is full of aerobic bacteria that removes oxygen from the water. This creates an anaerobic zone in the second tower, this is where the magic happens. Once the bacteria is anaerobic it removes an oxygen atom from No3(Nitrate) and creates No2(Nitrogen Gas), which escapes the water column through the effluent line.

The entire point of the reactor is to create an anaerobic area, with plenty of media for the anaerobic bacteria to live, with a carbon source to supercharge them.

Design:
This does not HAVE to be done with the two towers, there are people that have successfully done it with one LONG (Like 4 foot long) horizontal pipe. However, the twin tower method is the more likely path to success.

• Use a small tube to the exit/drain so air cannot bubble back into the reactor.
• Flow rate: Start out 5-10ml a second. After a reading of zero nitrates is obtained from the effluent you can increase flow and adjust carbon dosing to find a desired No3 level.

- Size: There seems to be a few people that report the most efficient dwell time (Time the water is in the reactor) is a little over an hour. SO, some math can be done here to figure it out; 10% of your system volume/ 24 = volume of your reactor (from inlet to outlet, not all the way to the top of the pipe). I would go as big as you can reasonably fit though.
- Can be built outside the sump if using an auto doser or some sort of valve on the dosing port, and the reactor is sealed.

Media:

Only requirements is that it is reef safe, is porous and has plenty of surface area for bacterial growth. (Think: Marine pure style bioballs etc)
It seems the smaller media gets clogged easy, when this happens you may be able to backflush it, or you may need to disassemble and start over. Multiple people have had plenty of success only using the 1” bioballs (Aquaneat) available on Amazon as their ONLY media. These people have not seemed to have issues with clogging.
Bacteria: Seems most people have had success with Microbactor7. However, Dr. Tims Waste-a-Way doesn’t work (different type of bacteria). One-and-Only may work… but MB7 seems to be associated with the success stories.

Carbon Source: Vodka, or Vinegar, or NOPOX, or DIY NOPOX, or VSV. I think there is even a dude on here feeding it with a bio pellet reactor. Carbon dosing is best done through a doser and spread out throughout the day.

Start up- Set flow to 5-10ml per second, always make sure the stream is moving fast enough to prevent air from bubbling back into the reactor from the drain. 5 ml a day of MB7 for 5 days. On day three begin carbon dosing. (I have to do more research on the carbon doses, someone said start with 4ml if its vinegar, increasing by 2ml a day, then once a reduction in No3 is noted in the effluent maintain that dose)
After this the flow and carbon source can be titrated to maintain desired levels.

Notes:

• If you smell rotten eggs in the effluent increase the flow!!, This is Hydrogen Sulfide being created instead of No3 and it is toxic to the reef. Increased flow will eliminate this. If it is bad or if the reactor sits stagnant, circulate the water inside the reactor into a bucket instead of into the system.

 

[skuller]

Can you add a video of effluent coming out of denitrator

Yes, but how to add a video in this forum?
The effluent is a very tiny line of water dropping to the sump, not drops but a thin line of water.
The question is, why from one day to another I have 25ppm on the effluent of the reactor?
Also, my reactor is not an U...but a pipe segment of 11cm diameter by 50cm high.
The water is filling from base to the top.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Im

Yes, but how to add a video in this forum?
The effluent is a very tiny line of water dropping to the sump, not drops but a thin line of water.
The question is, why from one day to another I have 25ppm on the effluent of the reactor?
Also, my reactor is not an U...but a pipe segment of 11cm diameter by 50cm high.
The water is filling from base to the top.

I have one very similar to yours, when in use I have a trickle almost a stream, coming out of 1/4 tubing. I think you happen to catch that reading at the right time. When my denitrators come on line, I test every 3-4 days, by 10 days start seeing a difference. Should be ok. Do you have a way to let nitrogen gas release from top. If yes, if you smell hydrogen sulfide, need to increase flow.

 

[skuller]

I have one very similar to yours, .... I test every 3-4 days, by 10 days start seeing a difference. Should be ok..

Hi Dendrostein
Did you notice a rise in the NO3s after 2-3 weeks? Why is this? Should the nitrates go down again in some days?
No bad smell at all in mine..

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Hi Dendrostein
Did you notice a rise in the NO3s after 2-3 weeks? Why is this? Should the nitrates go down again in some days?
No bad smell at all in mine..

I think it's populating with anaerobic bacteria, should be fine. With I start testing, when my denitrator comes online, I notice nitrites up to, and DT is 0 in nitrites. So normal cycling

 

[skuller]

Thank you Dendrostain.

Will post an update in a few days.

 

[raketemensch]

Pouring out a Dr. Tim's for Donovan... Wow. Read this entire thread over the past few evenings, great stuff.

This thing seems pretty amazing. I have a few questions, hopefully they're not all insanely stupid:

1) This seems a lot like cycling a new tank to get through the nitrogen cycle and populate the same bacteria in your live rock/sand/filter. What is the actual difference? Could one use this system to jumpstart a cycle?

2) How many people have been able to quit dosing eventually, once the colonies are established?

3) Similarly, how many of you are no longer using a skimmer? I plan to eventually scale up greatly, and that would be a huge cost savings.

4) Also similarly, how many of you stopped using a refugium with this thing? It sounds like it's robbing the chaeto/algae of nutrients anyway, which is the point -- to export those nitrates, right? I also wonder how this affects the growth/population of pods, although adding the beneficial bacteria may actually help with that.

I guess, finally, other than the steel wool, how have others manage phosphates once you've had this thing up and running for a while?