Potassium nitrate (Spectracide stump remover) dosing steps

[mcarroll]

CO2 is an inorganic form of carbon

I may definitely be getting something wrong or only 1/1000 right, but carbonic anhydrase is the difference between organic carbon and inorganic carbon (CO2 specifically). I think it may have been one of the very first enzymes.

All I'm saying is that I doubt it's correct to characterize the problem as a carbon deficiency, and the negative effects on the system's primary habitants (coral) seems worthy of greater consideration than it gets. Research I've done seems suggestive that high nutrient loads are to be avoided, rather than caused. Corals in such environments are more prone to bleaching, for example.

You may have already read this, but if not it would make a good supporting read...(still getting through it myself)
"Ratio of Energy and Nutrient Fluxes Regulates Symbiosis between Zooxanthellae and Corals"
https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/handle/10125/2241

A quick couple of quotes:
(LL = low light ; HL = high light)

...although LL colonies acquire carbon and nitrogen at the C : N ratio of 9.97, HL colonies acquire them at a 30.15 ratio...

[...]We suggest that, unlike LL colonies, HL corals do not hunt zooplankton for their car- bon but rather for their nitrogen[...]

And a great factoid..not directly related to our conversation, but tasty!

It has been found that the zooxanthellae photoacclimate within a week to a new irradiance level and that the host also responds to this change.

Obviously, there are more details...

 

[bif24701]

I wouldn't be afraid of it, just don't overdo it. I'm not a NOPOX user so I can't comment on your dosage. Ideally with it's addition you want the tank to remain where you want it, neither creeping up or down in nitrates or phosphates. When I dosed KNO3 I figured out what I need to bring my tank to 2 ppm NO3 and then added it to the sump. I then tested 24 hours later. I pretty much tested every 24 hours both NO3 and PO4 until I got everything balanced and stable. (I'm a compulsive tester now lol). Basically watching your levels will tell you exactly how to tweak your carbon additions until it's balanced. I hope this helps some.

It does, my levels are quite stable, I also test compulsively. After 24 hours after dosing what do you expect your levels to be?

 

[Rick.45cal]

It does, my levels are quite stable, I also test compulsively. After 24 hours after dosing what do you expect your levels to be?

The same

 

[bif24701]

The same

2ppm

 

[Rick.45cal]

I may definitely be getting something wrong or only 1/1000 right, but carbonic anhydrase is the difference between organic carbon and inorganic carbon (CO2 specifically). I think it may have been one of the very first enzymes.

All I'm saying is that I doubt it's correct to characterize the problem as a carbon deficiency, and the negative effects on the system's primary habitants (coral) seems worthy of greater consideration than it gets. Research I've done seems suggestive that high nutrient loads are to be avoided, rather than caused. Corals in such environments are more prone to bleaching, for example.

You may have already read this, but if not it would make a good supporting read...(still getting through it myself)
"Ratio of Energy and Nutrient Fluxes Regulates Symbiosis between Zooxanthellae and Corals"
https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/handle/10125/2241

A quick couple of quotes:
(LL = low light ; HL = high light)




And a great factoid..not directly related to our conversation, but tasty!


Obviously, there are more details...

That's a great article. It fits with my theory of what occured with the bleaching event in my tank, nearly to a t. Corals and their zooxanthellae share a very cool and complex relationship one of the many reasons they are fascinating. The article reinforces some hypothesis I have had regarding substantial light increases and immediate nutrient availability. The enormous increase in the Redfield ratio speaks volumes to how High light environments require a much larger proportion of nutrients than low light environments. It also reinforces too me (in my mind) that simple feeding of the animal ISN'T enough and that trace amounts of phosphate and nitrate available benefits both the host animal and the symbiotic algae.

Pretty cool system of how the density of the zooxanthellae is the regulating mechanism via carbon limition within the animal to reduce their energy output in high light environments. The size increasing in low light environment to absorb as much light as possible.

 

[Rick.45cal]

2ppm

That's what I have been shooting to keep mine at. It's an arbitrary number that I chose to try, it gave me some leeway in either direction so that I had a nice "buffer" while I figured out where I needed to be to get the tank to balance. It just happens that everything seemed to really take off right away so I am keeping it there and we will see in a few months if I think it was a good choice. My tank is still a young tank and I'm old school, we only dreamed of being able to run tanks that were "too clean" 25 years ago. Just like most things in life, the reality is seldom as perfect as the dream. I'm still learning to manage a system of this nature and like other people I make mistakes too, in spite of trying my best not too!

It's threads like these, and conversations with others like you and mcarroll that help to clarify and further my understanding (or lack there of, at times.)

After lurking for quite awhile you only further to gain insight by participation, hence why I am participating

 

[Sean Warden]

This has been a great thread, and packed with excellent information.

But, for my own clarification I would like to confirm what I have learned, and what to expect.

My system,

Sps dominant, LPS mixed
150 gal display
30 gal sump with fuge
UV sterilizer
Skimz SV223 skimmer
Apex controller


In my case I have been dosing carbon, and do not use gfo for po4 control, or any other media for no3 either. I do use activated carbon, replaced monthly in a bag in my sump.

My parameters are as follows,

Alk. ~ 9
Ca 420 - 440
PO4 - <0.05 (Hanna ULR)
NO3 - 0.0 (or undetectable via Salifert)
Mg - ~1380
PH - 7.9 - 8.1 (monitored via Apex)
ORP - varies, but has been ~ 470 recently
Temp - 77.0 -77.5
Ecotech Radion G2, x 2 set at 48%, runs 8 hours at this point.

I test weekly and have very repeatable results. I dose Ca as needed and use buffer to maintain alk in top off water.

My LPS are doing great no real issues. My SPS have some color but not as I would expect, pale but growing. IMO very good PE.

Fish- 1 yellow tang, 1 mated pair Perculia Clowns, 1 six line wrasse, 2 four stripe damsels, 1 yellow tail damsel.

Feeding, Reef Frenzy 2-3 ~ 1/2" cubes, Reef Chili as prescribed three time a week.

Salifert hard trace once a week, and Acropower 1-2 times per week.

So, back to my original point.

My point is that after reading this thread I might be a good candidate for this approach. I want to clarify what to expect (chemistry nerd).

When I back off on carbon dosing my PO4 goes up, NO3 does not. So my expectation should be after doesing KNO3 and stable readings are attained, the PO4 should drop. Correct?

Possible algae should dissipate?

Colors should slowly return?

I apologize in advance for the lengthy post. But, you insight is appreciated.

Sean

 

[Waterjockey]

This has been a great thread, and packed with excellent information.

But, for my own clarification I would like to confirm what I have learned, and what to expect.

My system,

Sps dominant, LPS mixed
150 gal display
30 gal sump with fuge
UV sterilizer
Skimz SV223 skimmer
Apex controller


In my case I have been dosing carbon, and do not use gfo for po4 control, or any other media for no3 either. I do use activated carbon, replaced monthly in a bag in my sump.

My parameters are as follows,

Alk. ~ 9
Ca 420 - 440
PO4 - <0.05 (Hanna ULR)
NO3 - 0.0 (or undetectable via Salifert)
Mg - ~1380
PH - 7.9 - 8.1 (monitored via Apex)
ORP - varies, but has been ~ 470 recently
Temp - 77.0 -77.5
Ecotech Radion G2, x 2 set at 48%, runs 8 hours at this point.

I test weekly and have very repeatable results. I dose Ca as needed and use buffer to maintain alk in top off water.

My LPS are doing great no real issues. My SPS have some color but not as I would expect, pale but growing. IMO very good PE.

Fish- 1 yellow tang, 1 mated pair Perculia Clowns, 1 six line wrasse, 2 four stripe damsels, 1 yellow tail damsel.

Feeding, Reef Frenzy 2-3 ~ 1/2" cubes, Reef Chili as prescribed three time a week.

Salifert hard trace once a week, and Acropower 1-2 times per week.

So, back to my original point.

My point is that after reading this thread I might be a good candidate for this approach. I want to clarify what to expect (chemistry nerd).

When I back off on carbon dosing my PO4 goes up, NO3 does not. So my expectation should be after doesing KNO3 and stable readings are attained, the PO4 should drop. Correct?

Possible algae should dissipate?

Colors should slowly return?

I apologize in advance for the lengthy post. But, you insight is appreciated.

Sean

Yes, you should see phosphates drop when dosing KNO3 & carbon source.

It virtually eliminated hair algae in my display tank. There's a small tuft here and there but I am ok with that...everybody's gotta eat

I don't keep sps (lps dominant tank), so I can't comment about them, but my lps look fuller and happier and have good colouration imho.

I have to throw out a word of caution...as with everything in reefing go really, really slow. It is easy to strip your tank to far too low levels with this method. I went pretty hard the first time I did this, and had a couple of lobo and trachy's go through some serious stn. It took months after I stopped before they started inflating again, and are still very slowly starting to put some flesh back on their skeletons. I now run the system pretty close to what your current parameters are now dkh about 8.5, no3 slight trace (under 5ppm), and phosphates mostly zero to 0.02 with Hanna (not ulr), calcium 440, mag 1320ish

 

[Sean Warden]

Great, thanks for you response. The whole idea makes sense to me as I believe our systems are all about balance. But I do not take lightly the importance of caution, call me paranoid. And to be honest, I think people get so focused, me included, on minimizing nutrients to control various algae, and related issues that we loose perspective.

I will throw in my observations as I progress with dosing. Now I just need to figure out how to get some decent pictures.

 

[morpheas]

The gel filters from eBay do wonders for picture taking!

 

[dankreef]

I just set up the new reef. I have a small fish load so far. I could not get n03 to save my life to show up on a test. Heavy heavy feeding. My sps is fading so I just gave it a try. I read this thread last night, then went to Lowes. I dosed 4 teaspoons 4 hours apart in my system about 550 gallons. So happy to finally see a color on the wheel, but it doesn't seem to match exactly so I'm guessing it's inbetween these 2 as of this morning. Very excited though day 1. Also running no skimmer.

 

[Sean Warden]

Okay, so I made up a batch of the KNO3 solution per the instructions given at the beginning of the thread. The concentrations, based on my OCD testing protocol, appear to be spot on with the dosing rates.

So I thought I would share a couple of pictures of the response of one of my SPS, a Vilida, that I thought was on its way out. Prior to dosing it was very pale, but did have some PE. However nothing that I did would ever get it to color up. It would either be brownish, or almost bleached in appearance.

I started slow by dosing only to 0.5 ppm (Red Sea Pro). The response was almost immediate, and I have been amazed its current state after six weeks. Here are two pictures, before and after, excuse the crappy quality I'm still working on my photography skills.

I am know dosing to ~2.0 ppm weekly and the tank appears to be fine, with the exception of some spots of cyano. But, I'm dealing with that separately. Small price to pay in my opinion for the overall heath of my corals.

 

[authentic]

I have been dosing nopox with good results,Nitrates<1, would cutting back my nopox do the same as starting spectracide?

 

[drawman]

I have been dosing nopox with good results,Nitrates<1, would cutting back my nopox do the same as starting spectracide?

Yes I would start doing that over dosing Potassium Nitrate. However, if your goal is to drive down PO4 then you can do both but make sure you're testing PO4 you don't want to drive it down too far.

 

[CoralManz]

Okay just to make sure to make a stock solution it's 2 teaspoons per cup of water right?And by how much will each mL/gallon increase the NO4 levels by?Im sure you mentioned it before so ill also go back and read @twilliard @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Rick.45cal]

Okay just to make sure to make a stock solution it's 2 teaspoons per cup of water right?And by how much will each mL/gallon increase the NO4 levels by?Im sure you mentioned it before so ill also go back and read @twilliard @Randy Holmes-Farley

It's 2 Tablespoons to 500ml of RODI. I add 20 ml to raise 160 gallons about 1.5ppm with that mix.

Edited to add: I look back through the thread and twillard suggests 2 tablespoons per 2 cups of RODI (which is about 476ml)

 

[mcarroll]

@morpheas's downloadable spreadsheet in this post: #318
@morpheas's GoogleDoc'd spreadsheet in this post: #340

These will help with making the solution as well as calculating the dose.

#kno3 #nitrate #calculator #spreadsheet #googledoc


(I wish this thread was a sticky and I wish these links, along with a more precise formula, were in the first post.)

 

[bif24701]

@morpheas's downloadable spreadsheet in this post: #318
@morpheas's GoogleDoc'd spreadsheet in this post: #340

These will help with making the solution as well as calculating the dose.

#kno3 #nitrate #calculator #spreadsheet #googledoc


(I wish this thread was a sticky and I wish these links, along with a more precise formula, were in the first post.)

We could just quote this post once every page.

 

[mcarroll]

You just made this throwback wednesday.

Back in the day (I'm talking pre-web) it was usual to post a forum's FAQ frequently enough so that it almost always appeared in the current list of threads.

 

[bif24701]

You just made this throwback wednesday.

Back in the day (I'm talking pre-web) it was usual to post a forum's FAQ frequently enough so that it almost always appeared in the current list of threads.

Now no one looks at the stickies or FAQs.