Power outage options

[drmofjeannie]

I am worried about possibility of loss of power to my tank due to power outage from a snowstorm. Does anyone else have a backup and if so what do you use?

 

[sgdnycct]

I’m trying to find a UPS solution.

My thinking is I need to power the heater and return pump for 12 hrs where I can turn on and off intermittently to extend the time. My thought is if it goes beyond total of 12 hrs I can drive somewhere to recharge.

I’m confused with all the ratings and types. I hear discussions about inverters and UPS and solar power.

What should I look for in the specifications to get my heater and return pump to run for 12 hrs? I think it’s 250 watts to run both.

 

[BeanAnimal]

close to a house? Riiight. Open air outside a residence is not a threat unless exhaust is pointed towards an open window/door. Bit of a reach there.

It’s not a reach, it was a general safety guideline.

Yes, open doors or windows, crawl space entrances, covered porches etc. pose a danger. There are numerous considerations. The advice was to act safely.

To account for things like that, the general guideline is at least 20 feet from the home. It can be much closer in many cases, depending on the environment and home layout.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

I’m trying to find a UPS solution.

My thinking is I need to power the heater and return pump for 12 hrs where I can turn on and off intermittently to extend the time. My thought is if it goes beyond total of 12 hrs I can drive somewhere to recharge.

I’m confused with all the ratings and types. I hear discussions about inverters and UPS and solar power.

What should I look for in the specifications to get my heater and return pump to run for 12 hrs? I think it’s 250 watts to run both.

Anker Solis makes a great battery. Some of these can be a few thousand of dollars for the 3,000 watt plus models.

Here is a great one-
Amazon product ASIN B09XM7WDZ2

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

that will get you to 12 hours but depends on your tank size

 

[sgdnycct]

that will get you to 12 hours but depends on your tank size

Thanks for that. The link didn’t work so I did a search but came up with units in the hundreds.

I’m still not clear on whether I need to spend that much to run only my heaters and return pump. I think the two combined use 240 watts.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So, a 200 W heater and 40 W pump?

 

[sgdnycct]

Soma 200 W heater and 40 W pump?

I was reading the draw from the UPS I have now and it shows 250 watts when both heating elements and pump are on.

The heating elements are 200 and 300 watts each for a total of 500. Is the rating in the specs the number I would use to determine the amount of power they are using per hour?

Sorry if I sound dense I can’t get my head around this.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The ratings should be close for heaters, what UPS, it sounds way off, but that is not normal either.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

heaters will eat up a lot of power so i would go bigger.

 

[sgdnycct]

The ratings should be close for heaters, what UPS, it sounds way off, but that is not normal either.

The UPS is an APC back-ups 1500.

I just pulled the power again. With the return pump running and the two heating elements it’s reading a 238 watt load at 111V. 60Hz.

Is that right?

 

[BeanAnimal]

That makes no sense if both heaters are actually heating. I would say the UPS current shunt is poorly calibrated.

Brands of heaters and pump please?
A Kill A Watt is $30 on amazin and likely more accurate.

What does EACH device read on its own on the UPS?

 

[sgdnycct]

That makes no sense if both heaters are actually heating. I would say the UPS current shunt is poorly calibrated.

Brands of heaters and pump please?
A Kill A Watt is $30 on amazin and likely more accurate.

What does EACH device read on its own on the UPS?

Heater alone: 200 w
Pump alone: 33 w

Heater: IM Helios 83001 with two elements. The back tag says max power consumption .7 watts which doesn’t make any sense.

Pump: Hygger HG 105-3500 DC pump

 

[BeanAnimal]

Those heaters are not constant current, they are PTC based. The APC is likely close.
Even though your labels say 500W total, those heaters only deliver 500W combined for a few minutes. As they heat up they self regulate and draw less power.

So unless you have them submerged in icewater, they will never deliver 500W of continuous heating. At your tank temperature it looks like 200W as about all you can get out of them.

You still need to size the backup for worst case, which is 500W heating and 50W of pump.

 

[sgdnycct]

Those heaters are not constant current, they are PTC based. The APC is likely close.
Even though your labels say 500W total, those heaters only deliver 500W combined for a few minutes. As they heat up they self regulate and draw less power.

So unless you have them submerged in icewater, they will never deliver 500W of continuous heating. At your tank temperature it looks like 200W as about all you can get out of them.

You still need to size the backup for worst case, which is 500W heating and 50W of pump.

Ok that makes sense! Thank you.

So let’s say 500 watts. What specifications do I look for in the UPS so I can calculate how many hours? Sometimes is KWh or Ma or other numbers so so I haven’t been able to compare apples to apples.

Does the 500 watt mean I’ll use 500 watts per hour?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Buckle up:

500 Watts for 1 hour is 500 Watt-hours (Wh).
2 hours would be 1 kWh.
12 hours, 6 kWh.
6 kWh is 6,000 Wh.
Let’s say your UPS is 90% efficient. You need 6,000 Wh / 0.90 = 6,667 Wh of battery energy.

Most UPS systems in that size range will have 48 Volt or 96 Volt busses.
Let’s stick with 48 V
6,667 Wh / 48 Volts = 139 Amp-hours at 48 Volts.

But we need to account for battery type. Lead Acid (AGM in most UPSs) should not be taken below 50% charge, so you need 278 Ah at 48 Volts.
If the batteries are LiFePO4, then call it 90% discharge, so you need 155 Ah at 48 Volts.

Batteries in series add voltage, but not amp-hours. So the UPS needs 4 batteries in series per string to make 48 Volts, and multiple parallel strings to reach the required amp-hours. For example, if you used 100 Ah AGM batteries, you would need three parallel strings (12 batteries total) to get 300 Ah at 48 Volts. That is 700 pounds of batteries!

Sanity Check — Your current APC BackUPS 1500 has (2) 7.2 Ah batteries in series for a 24 Volt bus. You get about 20 minutes of runtime at 500 Watts. That is about 12 pounds of batteries.

So in theory (3) backUPS 1500s per one hour, 36 of them for 12 hours, or a single BackUPS 1500 with (72) 7.2 Ah batteries. But all of those small batteries at high discharge rate suffer large capacity loss, so your theoretical cabinet would need more like 100 of them.

Perspective: You draw less than 500 watts so could go smaller and still likely hit your 12 hour target. Say the sustained average is 250 W. You halve the capacity requirement. It is still a very large battery requirement, but workable. A LiFePO4 setup that can do 75 Ah at 48 V would work and only weigh 150 pounds or so.

I think you are looking at a $1500 to $3000 investment in a power bank, depending on brand.

For UPS style (AGM), using CyberPower (inexpensive) as an example for 12 hours at 250 W, you are looking at a $1000 UPS and (6) $1000 battery cabinets. So $7000 and batteries that have a 3-5 year lifespan.

Not the answer you are looking for.

 

[sgdnycct]

Buckle up:

500 Watts for 1 hour is 500 Watt-hours (Wh).
2 hours would be 1 kWh.
12 hours, 6 kWh.
6 kWh is 6,000 Wh.
Let’s say your UPS is 90% efficient. You need 6,000 Wh / 0.90 = 6,667 Wh of battery energy.

Most UPS systems in that size range will have 48 Volt or 96 Volt busses.
Let’s stick with 48 V
6,667 Wh / 48 Volts = 139 Amp-hours at 48 Volts.

But we need to account for battery type. Lead Acid (AGM in most UPSs) should not be taken below 50% charge, so you need 278 Ah at 48 Volts.
If the batteries are LiFePO4, then call it 90% discharge, so you need 155 Ah at 48 Volts.

Batteries in series add voltage, but not amp-hours. So the UPS needs 4 batteries in series per string to make 48 Volts, and multiple parallel strings to reach the required amp-hours. For example, if you used 100 Ah AGM batteries, you would need three parallel strings (12 batteries total) to get 300 Ah at 48 Volts. That is 700 pounds of batteries!

Sanity Check — Your current APC BackUPS 1500 has (2) 7.2 Ah batteries in series for a 24 Volt bus. You get about 20 minutes of runtime at 500 Watts. That is about 12 pounds of batteries.

So in theory (3) backUPS 1500s per one hour, 36 of them for 12 hours, or a single BackUPS 1500 with (72) 7.2 Ah batteries. But all of those small batteries at high discharge rate suffer large capacity loss, so your theoretical cabinet would need more like 100 of them.

Perspective: You draw less than 500 watts so could go smaller and still likely hit your 12 hour target. Say the sustained average is 250 W. You halve the capacity requirement. It is still a very large battery requirement, but workable. A LiFePO4 setup that can do 75 Ah at 48 V would work and only weigh 150 pounds or so.

I think you are looking at a $1500 to $3000 investment in a power bank, depending on brand.

For UPS style (AGM), using CyberPower (inexpensive) as an example for 12 hours at 250 W, you are looking at a $1000 UPS and (6) $1000 battery cabinets. So $7000 and batteries that have a 3-5 year lifespan.

Not the answer you are looking for.

Wow thank you! I’ll need to re-read a couple of times. If I can understand the formulas then I can adjust the plan to balance costs a bit.

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me understand it!

 

[Freenow54]

Also some of my CO investigations involved attached garage and warming up cars . As well as people not priming their floor drains and getting fumes. Three homes exploded because of gas infiltration from another home. Another we given gasoline filters to eliminate any weird occurrence

 

[BeanAnimal]

Also some of my CO investigations involved attached garage and warming up cars . As well as people not priming their floor drains and getting fumes. Three homes exploded because of gas infiltration from another home. Another we given gasoline filters to eliminate any weird occurrence

The numbers I posted differentiated between those types of things.

But it doesn’t matter, the point is that a portal generator should never be run in a garage, door open or not.

 

[Privateye]

hi, i've been trying to find one that will be on standby and only run when it detects a power outage. this one's description says when pluged it it acts as a normal pump. do you have any that actually will stay in standbye mode while being charged, then turn on using the battery when power is lost? i can't find any like that. but it seems like it would be a common product.

I actually only have ones that operate that way. The brand I purchased was "Cherlam" and I got them on Amazon, but now that brand no longer exists. It's been replaced by identical products with other brand names. I think they just change over time.

Here are a few ways this could happen:

1. A manufacturer offers their products to multiple distributors, and will put the distributors' names on the product.
2. The IP from the old vendor is sold or licensed to another one.
3. The company went under and new vendors filled the void.

Mine can operate in both ways. If you push the power button once, it stays on. Press it again and it will only turn on when power is disconnected (if this is already the case, it will just run). Press it a third time and the pump turns off.

The only thing I don't love, is that when power is restored, the pump still stays on. You have to manually cycle through the power button functions to get it to turn off.

 

[skey44]

I’ve been quite satisfied with my Honda EU2200. It has 150+ hours from Hurricane Helene. Kept my young tank alive for 10 days was even running lights lol. On standby this time it cranked right up. I’m looking at upgrading to second one in parallel to double the power for next outage. Also interested in getting a transfer switch to plug it into so i wouldn’t have to run extension cords through house.