Quarantine Fish yes or no?

[Dave1993]

It depends on the form of copper and the dose. Amine chelated copper products are relatively non-toxic. Ionic copper and citric acid copper products are more toxic.

Sodium and chlorine are both deadly elements, but put together, they are just salt.

Jay

so the copper used on fish would be safe to drink for humans?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

so the copper used on fish would be safe to drink for humans?

Not straight from the bottle!

At dosed levels, amine based copper medications are around 2.5 ppm. The EPA threshold for ionic copper in drinking water is 1.3 ppm. Fish are not the same as humans. Fish die from 0.35 ppm ionic copper, so fish are actually more sensitive to ionic copper than people are. Amine based copper is not as toxic to fish.

Random fact, copper is much more toxic to freshwater fish than marine fish - despite the fact that marine fish drink water and freshwater fish do not.

Jay

 

[PhishMonger84]

And I didn't add to it. I edited mine so it wouldn't bump the post but will bump it in responce to your uniformed comment.

wheres the vomit emoji when you need one.

 

[liddojunior]

so the copper used on fish would be safe to drink for humans?

You have copper in your foods. People tend to not eat enough of it. It’s an essential trace mineral
You need copper to survive.
The dose for a reef tank is actually probably fine if you take it. 10 mg is the most you should have in a day. And the dose for a tank usually is around 0.2 mg/L

So if you make a liter of water at the right dose and drank it you’ll be fine. You actually poop way more copper than that in a day.

Edit: don’t go around taking copper supplements without talking to your doctor first. If you eat too much you’ll do damage to your kidney just like with many other vitamins and minerals.

 

[Saltees]

Insofar with 2.5ppm copper power treatment for over 30 days has been good to me with no fish lost.

FWIW, my modified HTTM QT for all my new fishes is as follows in 4 nos of IKEA SAMLA 45L PP boxes (T1-T4), each with own's PVC pipes, air hoses and stones.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

I compare it more to vaccination of new personnel entering the country to prevent contagious diseases to the population. As far as I know, cancer does not transmit to others.

Yes, I do QT all fish entering my system.
I have lost over 20 fish to disease because of one instance of bringing in unquarantined livestock.
I have yet to lose a fish to copper treatment since starting QTing fish.
Most die from transportation to me within the first week. I like to observe for 1 week to make sure they are healthy and eating well for copper.

Not really as a vaccine won’t generally be fairly harmful to the recipient as well.
The damages done by copper won’t be obvious or instantaneous noticeable since they primarily consist of metabolic damage and will manifest later down the line.
I happen to know two veterinarians who specialize in fish and are reefers and they both are of the same mind after observing and doing autopsies on fish who has been under long term copper exposure so it’s not just something I’ve concocted myself.

If one has to treat prophylactically chloroquine phosphate is effective and not close to as harmful in most instances.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not really as a vaccine won’t generally be fairly harmful to the recipient as well.
The damages done by copper won’t be obvious or instantaneous noticeable since they primarily consist of metabolic damage and will manifest later down the line.
I happen to know two veterinarians who specialize in fish and are reefers and they both are of the same mind after observing and doing autopsies on fish who has been under long term copper exposure so it’s not just something I’ve concocted myself.

If one has to treat prophylactically chloroquine phosphate is effective and not close to as harmful in most instances.

I have to disagree with you regarding copper causing long term damage - it is an acute poison if not dosed properly, but it does not cause chronic residual damage (so 4+ months after exposure). Ionic copper is more acutely toxic to fish than amine-based copper is. Chloroquine also has some acute toxicity issues with wrasse and lionfish when used at greater than 15 mg/l

I did an informal survey of public aquarists on our 1000+ member list serve (including some aquatic veterinarians) and nobody had any cases of chronic copper toxicity to show, indeed, this seems to mostly be a home aquarist construct, many of the public aquarists were like, "What are you talking about? we use copper in almost all of our quarantines except for elasmobranchs"

We have 100's of fish that were acquired in 2014, given amine-based copper treatments, and are still thriving. None of these fish have died from anything that histopathology could show as damage from toxins.


Jay

 

[Cthulukelele]

I'm team 'observe and treat as necessary' for the same reason I'm against the overprescription of antibiotics. Drugs treat disease. If there are no symptoms of disease, I do not treat. Medications are functionally different than vaccinations. Prazi pro does not provide your fish immunity to flukes. I personally don't like treating with drugs whenever possible as I don't want disturb any of the beneficial microorganisms colonizing my fishy friends in the scorched earth war against disease. In the last 5 years I've lost exactly 1 fish to disease and it was an anthia to uronema in the first week in the tank. Other 2 anthias are fine.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

I have to disagree with you regarding copper causing long term damage - it is an acute poison if not dosed properly, but it does not cause chronic residual damage (so 4+ months after exposure). Ionic copper is more acutely toxic to fish than amine-based copper is. Chloroquine also has some acute toxicity issues with wrasse and lionfish when used at greater than 15 mg/l

I did an informal survey of public aquarists on our 1000+ member list serve (including some aquatic veterinarians) and nobody had any cases of chronic copper toxicity to show, indeed, this seems to mostly be a home aquarist construct, many of the public aquarists were like, "What are you talking about? we use copper in almost all of our quarantines except for elasmobranchs"

We have 100's of fish that were acquired in 2014, given amine-based copper treatments, and are still thriving. None of these fish have died from anything that histopathology could show as damage from toxins.


Jay

And I’m going to have to disagree with you on that haha.

Not on the fact that copper and chloroquine phosphate can be acutely toxic! CP seems to be extremely toxic to specific genuses and species. Blue tangs for example.

Personally I’ve seen fairly marked differences on long term health where I’ve treated with copper and not doings so. However, that as you say, isn’t really statistically significant.

Regardless of my own experiences there are a fair bit of studies leaning towards copper exposure causing long term damage on fish.
My two buddies are in the aquaculture industry where a lot of money are riding on effective treatments of disease so they have both done a fair bit of testing in this area and both have seen similar results. Those two things combined is well enough for me

 

[Dicey1]

I buy quarantined fish only. Don’t have room for an extra tank. No worries

 

[JohnA26]

I buy quarantined fish only. Don’t have room for an extra tank. No worries

But after it is quarantined, then shipped/stressed, do you not think there is still benefit to qt or at least observing period?

 

[Saltees]

But after it is quarantined, then shipped/stressed, do you not think there is still benefit to qt or at least observing period?

I QT fishes myself. On completion, I would typically put them in the observation box in the display tank itself for 2 weeks before releasing them to the community.

 

[vancouverredsea350]

Here in Canada it’s very hard to get meds so I do a 30 day observational qt. Even if it was easy to get the meds I would only use them when needed. I don’t believe in pumping them with every med you can but I believe in qt for sure, I learned the hard way that qt is very important

You can buy off Amazon.com and get it shipped to Canada that’s what I do.

 

[Nano_Man]

Please read all Paul B articles on the subject

 

[Paul B]

I would never quarantine or medicate unless the fish was getting last rites from an Angelfish

Tank is over 50 years old. But this thread is an explosion waiting to happen as about half the people on here are adamant their way is the right way.

But it is a question that can't be answered. Some people keep their tanks in such a way that the fish are not immune and even if your tank is in front of the TV and a movie such as "The Andromeda Strain" is on, their fish will croak. Where as some tanks have fish in them that are cared for "differently" and more natural with real gut bacteria and those fish, barring some other things, will be immune so quarantine is not necessary and detrimental.

Just my opinion of course and I am an electrician.