Questions and constructive criticism (hopefully)

Discussion in 'Triton Applied Reef Bioscience' started by USMA36, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. USMA36

    USMA36 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    I tried posting in the support Facebook group, sent an email and also sent this same message to Triton via FB messenger with no response. I have a few questions I hope you can help me with. First off I would like to know when you plan on fixing the leaking container issue? In my opinion the milk containers just aren’t cutting it. I applaud you wanting to do right by the environment but the containers are terrible. It’s not just how hey are packaged by the retailer either. Please switch back to the plastic bottles. Most reefers are pretty environmentally conscientious people and recycle the plastic containers anyway. Secondly, when will core7 and core7 other methods be regularly available in the US? Currently I have been using other methods for the past 6 months and everyone I get within a month of needing more I have to play the game of tracking down who if anyone has any stock. I really want to continue but the availability is horrible. I simply cannot continue to rely on a system that I never know if I will be able to get. I really hope by the time my current batch is done your supply and leakage issues have been addressed. If not I will have to switch over to ATI. I urge you to read what your customers are saying on the Facebook Triton applied science support page and start replying to your customers. You are losing people left and right. You are probably losing countless more that read what current users have to say and move on to another system. I really want to love your core7 system. Please help make make that happen! If you guys don’t start engaging soon I’m afraid you’re gonna sink yourselves. I really hope to hear back. This isn’t meant to bash, meerly some constructive criticism for a company who’s products I use, love, and want to continue to use.
     
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  2. Jason mack

    Jason mack Monti madness R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

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    There is i triton forum on here !! Have to tried posting there !
    Edit : I see it is there forum , I apologize !
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  3. Tim@Triton

    Tim@Triton Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    Sorry for the late replies. I have been off this week.

    The leaking container issue has been solved for some time, the issue that since arrived was finding the best way to ship the new containers with the most protection. With the many thousands of units that we manufacturer there will always be a small number of failures, 99.9% of them will be caught before they leave the facility or get to the retailers and finally to the end customer. The handful of Facebook posts showing damaged containers is not a true reflection of the "success" of the new packaging.

    We will not be going back to the plastic bottles. We are currently producing in excess 30,000 litres of products a month and we are firmly against introducing that many single-use plastics into the environment.

    More stock leaving the facility this week. Contrary to popular belief the stocking issue has purely been down to demand as we have seen a seven-fold increase in demand which definitely caught us out a little.

    We take feedback seriously and have been reading every post on Facebook, forum post, and private message. As I say I have been off this week so it may appear to some in this world of instant communication that posts have been going unanswered but they are not ignored. We will continue to work to improve our service to our customers by listening to their concerns and take everything onboard.
     
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  4. USMA36

    USMA36 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Awesome. Thank you for getting back to me and answering all of my questions. I appreciate that. I hope you are right about the new containers and the leaking issues being solved.
     
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  5. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    At what point are you going to stop being disengenious in your answers? How much of your "seven fold increase in demand" was because you needed to replace leaking containers?

    More importantly, the question USMA36 did not ask, when will the rest of the world outside of Europe get to stop paying the higher penalty price?

    M
     
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  6. tastyfish

    tastyfish Active Member UK Reef Club Member

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    TBH, I think you may be being a bit harsh and probably unfair. I believe Triton have been a victim of their own success here, I would suspect it's difficult to get a production line like theirs to be elastic enough to deal with the sudden US demand of late. I'm no fan of the new packaging and believe it's the wrong thing to do and is counter productive, with much more practical and effective alternatives that I have suggested. However Triton are sticking to what they believe is right at the moment.

    What's the "penalty price" by the way? Normally the rest of the world experiences that from US manufacturers rather than the other way round.
     
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  7. Mandelstam

    Mandelstam Well-Known Member

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    I've been reading your questions and accusations for a while on multiple posts and Triton has also answered your questions and allegations already. If you have a personal vendetta against Triton fine, just stop buying their products. End of story.
     
  8. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    I agree it is harsh, but deserved given Triton's stubborn arrogance and utter remorseless refusal to listen to their customers and act in a proactive manner.

    Penalty Pricing? If you are outside of Europe, you are still paying for plastic bottles you are no longer receiving. Triton passed a portion of the savings for the milk cartons on to their European distribution channels, but no where else. Hence you are paying a penalty for triton's logistic missteps.

    If it only were the end of the story Mandelstam. Unfortunately Triton hasn't answered the hard questions. They have dodged, ducked, weaved and made lots of fluffy statements to spin away criticism, but they have not answered the real questions:

    1) For almost 2 years we been told the facility in California was coming and we could expect 24 hour turnaround on testing. Provide a target date. When is it going to happen?

    2) When will the logistic issues be resolved so folks in the US can stop hoarding product? Provide a target date.

    3) When will the penalty pricing end and the cost savings for cheaper cartons be passed on outside of Europe? Provide a target date.

    Golly, we could go back a couple of years and have Triton answer their own questions regarding reference samples for that matter.

    Look I drive a BEV. I have reduced my carbon footprint far far more than the average person (especially in this country), but that's not why I bought the car. Is it good for the environment? Sure, but the first thing I generally tell people is that I went from $250 a month in gas to $45 a month in electricity.

    That's transparency. That is what Triton has lacked in their communications over the past several months.

    If the questions were not asked repeatedly and partially answered would we have ever know Triton solved a warehousing issue by eliminating the bottles? Would we have known they reduced the price in Europe and no where else?

    I understand fans of Triton may not like what they are hearing, but it needs to be said. Transparency and open communication build trust. Obfuscation, reactive comments and a lack of firm commitments do the opposite.

    Personal vendetta? No. Personal mission per Tim? Oh yeah, I abhor commercialized hypocrisy.

    Answer the questions openly and honestly and we don't have a problem.

    M
     
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  9. Mandelstam

    Mandelstam Well-Known Member

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    I just think that all that energy could be better spent going after real evil corporations like Monsanto, Amazon, Nestlé, Chiquita, etc, etc, etc, instead of jumping on and hijacking threads with the same questions over and over.
     
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  10. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

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    @Want2BS8ed can´t you not just stop your vendetta. If you do not like the company - don´t use their products. Everyone in her know your standpoint - but 95 % of us has an other standpoint - and your nagging will not change that.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
  11. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Good company to be in and what exactly makes Triton's actions any less "evil" to use your words? Each of the companies you mention would have likely handled the situation better; in planning, execution and remediation. If anything Triton should be held to a higher standard because they claim to be a small family run business when it's convienent.

    Lack of transparency is not dependent on size, the big companies are just better at making you think they are transparent.

    And the questions wouldn't need to be asked repeatedly if they were answered.

    Lasse, it's not about product and has everything to do with moral turpitude. I am sorry I have failed to communicate that to you.

    I do have a question though, who makes up the "95% of us". There have been folks that have defended Triton for sure and others (myself included) who have been agnostic to the milk cartons. I have yet to see a thread started here or on Facebook singing the praises of their decision, however there have been quite a few (including this thread) that have done exactly the opposite. Let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument though.

    M
     
  12. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

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    If Triton has seen a seven-fold increase in demand (yes I believe Tim in what he say because at least here in Europe - the Triton method has risen very much in popularity) - there can´t be so many that have stop using the product because of "milk" - cartoons - and - they are not change back to plastic bottles whatever you or I say. If you want plastic bottles - chose another brand. What you are doing is negative campaigning - and IMO - that type of argue should not take place at a friendly reef forum as Reef2Reef.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
  13. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    You didn't just not answer my question did you Lasse? LOL

    And again I could really care less about what the product comes in - plastic or cardboard. I do care that Triton has openly stated that everyone outside of Europe is paying for a plastic bottle and not getting it. And that's not a "negative campaign"... that's cold hard truth directly from Triton. I'm sorry if you find that upsetting, but that fact set can not be altered.

    I've said this before, if anything has come out of this, my admiration for R2R has only increased in providing a forum where grievances can be expressed (even for a sponsor) and allowing a civil discussion to continue without draconian censorship. I am sorry you find that upsetting as well.

    M
     
  14. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Build Thread Contributor Reef Tank 365

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    The only thing they have said about the price is that they can´t lower the price to the resellers as long as they have to transport it by air due to freight cost. I do not know how its works in the US but here in Europe we as consumer never knows which price the manufactures sell the products to the resellers. We only know the price from the resellers and its not by automatic the resellers lower their prices if they buy it cheaper. I bought two T5 bulbs from the US - I had to pay the dubble price that you pay because of no free trade agrement and high freight cost. I´m not accuse that US website for charging me the dubble price - I did know it from the beginning and if I did not accept this - I should not buy from them. US products is more expensive in Europe than in the US - because of freight costs, VAT, trading cost and so on. If I do not want to buy US products because of the price - I do not buy them.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
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  15. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Actually, Triton claimed they were covering the additional cost of airfreight and that prices would be reduced once stock was built up in their new warehouse in California. Implying there was a container inbound. Hence the reason for the queries asking when those stocks would be available.

    Actually, Triton uses a MAP pricing strategy (Minimum Advertised Price). Triton sets the price and retailers are required to sell at that minimum price under relatively stiff penalties - commonly loss of ability to sell the product - akin to excommunication from the church.

    I'm not sure I see the relevance. The US website did not charge you double for the product. You would pay the same price I would for the same product. Your final cost was higher because of the freight cost, VAT, trading costs and so on. Triton openly applied a penalty price by not reducing their MAP pricing globally - unfortunately I'm still going to have to pay shipping and local taxes (if appropriate) on top of that penalty price.

    I often order products from overseas, mostly the UK, but occasionally the Netherlands, France and Germany. I'm probably paying less than you, because I don't have to pay VAT and DHL is pretty reasonable (Royal Mail even more so). Unfortunately shipping liquids can be a problem.

    Sorry, but that's a result of where each of us choose to live and should be irrelevant to Triton's pricing.

    M
     
  16. rockskimmerflow

    rockskimmerflow Active Member

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    Bravo. Spot on. What a well worded and thoughtful post addressing the same concerns I have had recently given Triton's missteps in adjusting to the higher demand created by offering a quality product. Sadly, Tim's responses do not assuage my concerns at all as I find the way he addresses questions to be very much in the 'talking points' vein, but I cannot fault him for having to go with the company lines. I'm sure he is only allowed to offer so much in terms of information based on direction from his bosses in Germany.

    The packaging issue interests me because so far I have observed 2 different explanations offered by Tim. Currently, in this thread, he references 30,000 liters/month of production and lack of comfort in sending out that many 'single use' plastic bottles. I can applaud the noble notion of improving the environment through packaging, but in all honestly this is a laughably emotional decision if it's simply based on a reduced environmental impact desire. 16.7 BILLION plastic bottles are consumed a month. So Triton's switch to paper, if all 30 thousand liters went into single bottles (which they won't), effectively reduces our global issue by an magnificent 0.0000018

    Now the other explanation, which was given to me when I asked initially, was that they had so many empty plastic bottles to fill that they simply couldn't fit all the empty bottles in the available space at their facility. This I can certainly believe, but it begs the question, how much does is cost to rent a few thousand square feet of storage warehouse space locally to the Triton headquarters in germany? I'd imagine a year or two of rent is substantially cheaper than the cost of the milk carton machine, but that pales in comparison to the tangible losses caused by the adoption of the faulty milk carton machine as well as the intangible customer losses. Obviously impossible to determine exactly, but I suspect we're talking over a million euros.

    I do think Triton was a victim of the rapid success of their Core7 line and they did obviously need to make a change to allow for increased supply chain flow. The decision made to 'fix' the issue of the Core7 product outstripping the available production space at the facility was painfully poor from a business/customer relation perspective. And to make matters worse it also turned around and bit them back again by crippling their entire product line availability by virtue of a fault with the ill-advised adoption of an entirely new packaging technique just as the product was taking off in terms of demand/widespread popularity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  17. Mandelstam

    Mandelstam Well-Known Member

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    Good company to be in? Handled the situation better?

    Like Chiquita did, ordering the slaughter of striking workers and just recently getting caught hiring terrorist organizations to protect their plantations? Or like Monsanto, poisoning the world just for profit? Or like Nestlé, wanting to remove the basic human right to clean water and privatize all of the world's water supplies?

    Yea, really good company... Triton's added price for the market outside of Europe is really up there with them...
     
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  18. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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  19. USMA36

    USMA36 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    I’m gonna give them one more try. If by the time my current suppply is exhausted sometime at the end of March and they don’t have the supply issues fixed I will move on to ATI. If I receive the new containers and I find they leak, I will also move in to ATI. I do agree, switching from bottles to containers right as the company is starting to take off here in the US doesn’t sound like the most sound of business decisions. I really hope the containers hold up. That being said, there’s a reason why chemical companies don’t ship or store caustic chemicals in paper containers. I don’t know what the pH of bottles 3a and 3b are but I’d imagine they’re pretty high.
     
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  20. Want2BS8ed

    Want2BS8ed Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Seeing how this is the "Questions and constructive criticism (hopefully)" thread, I was just strolling through reviews on BRS's website...

    Triton receives high marks for product content, but 12 out of 13 posted reviews made negative statements regarding either the change to cardboard cartons, leaking containers or lack of availability.

    Still think there is not a problem?
     
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