Red Sea Tank Fails, AGAIN! Any Recommendations?

[FlyPenFly]

I believe Fiji Cube and Waterbox both use stand designs that do not support the front glass on their rimless tanks.

Supposedly the pressure pushing against the front glass is immensely more than the weight of the glass itself. So if failure were to occur, it would be from the pressure of the water and not the vertical wieght of the glass.

I’m not a structural engineer so I can’t say who is right and I doubt any of us are here in this specialty.

 

[Lavey29]

I've got the perfect solution. I'm training my fish to detect potential seam problems because their lives depend on it so they have skin in the game. My life depends on it too because my wife will kill me surely if the tank leaks on the floor. So my fish are working hard checking every seam now for me 24/7. Next I'll have the cleaner shrimp learn how to use a glass seal patch kit too....problem solved.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I will add to the "engineering" part of the comments from myself and others above with context to trimmed vs trimless.

Trim (top and bottom) in general, act to prevent seam separation by (in essence) clamping the seams together at their extents and in the case of the bottom, along the length. This should be obvious.

However what is also extremely important is that fact that the TOP trim (be it plastic or eurobrace) forms a partial (not ideal, but partial) torsion box out of the tank by transferring stress from loaded sections to a broader area, as well as stiffening the long axis of the panels and preventing the entire system from racking (putting stress on the seams).

A braced aquarium is many times stronger than an unbraced aquarium. Seams can't peel apart and stress on the seams is somewhat mitigated by the stiffness imparted by the frame.

 

[Troylee]

Look we are all expressing some ideas on the cause. I have fabricated both glass and acrylic tanks over the decades I participated in the industry. I would never build a stand or cabinet that did not support the entire tank bottom especially when using rimless glass or acrylic. Next I would assure that the stand was rigid and could not deform with the pressure exerted by the tank and contents. Adding a series a small adjustable feet that are under rated to the entire load is not good design. Tell me how someone can adjust the back feet when the tank is up against the wall for example? Without experience how can you tell the feet have equal pressure? Now what kind of flooring are you placing the load on does it deform like carket or vynal flooring does? Couple that with all the movement in the knock down furniture cam locks and you have an Ikea stand that is not going to handle the weight if there is some mis adjustment of the tiny feet. You need strong structure with very little deflection to handle these loads. These stands are the failure point in this tank design in my experience. MDF should never be used for a stand ever due to the swelling when they get just a little wet. I have seen MDF cause panel failures on All Glass framed tanks after the owner spilled small amounts of water while cleaning the glass. I also witnessed a multi base failure in a customer's store that wanted to save money and had a local cabinet company install laminate over MDF in large retail store. He rejected the welded tubular steel, powdered coated stands with weight rated leveling feet I offered in the bid. In just a few months from use he called in a panic because the bases were swelling and getting soft! I had to disassemble the entire store and replace the MDF with new steel stands at his expense. The tanks were all acrylic by the way an may be the reason he had no leaks. These stands are not adequate for the long term use on most aquarist in my experience.

The weight of all these tanks should be directed down the long axis of the tank perimeter to the floor without exception. This would prevent the failures associated with these rimless tank designs. The custom tank designers use much better stand design in all their custom tanks for a reason. If I bought either RedSea or WaterBox or any of the mass produced tanks I would just buy the tank only and throw the stand away. The stands are probably the flaw in the design in my opinion and experience.

What’s cracking me up is everyone is sold on rimless tanks now and puts a lid on them… totally defeats the look and purpose sooooooooo… get a euro and piece of mind! Just my 2…

 

[Cell]

People spending too much time typing out how they think this thread is pointless instead of just ignoring it and moving on.

 

[MnFish1]

They are engineered to exist - but alas, ask Frank Lloyd Wright what happens when you design with great aesthetics and poor engineering

Well - that would be hard - given his living situation. There is (as far as I know). evidence anywhere that RedSea tanks fail (percentage wise) - more than others. PS - I would never ever buy a used tank - and one major poster here did

 

[MnFish1]

What’s cracking me up is everyone is sold on rimless tanks now and puts a lid on them… totally defeats the look and purpose sooooooooo… get a euro and piece of mind! Just my 2…

Putting a eurobrace on a rimless tank would not IMHO - make any difference in the bottom front seam failing? Or?

 

[MnFish1]

You keep repeating a similar statistic - I am curious as to the source?
Even if it were 100% true - do you feel that a 5% catastrophic failure rate is acceptable (honestly)?

Go ahead - calculate RedSea sales, calculate the number of NEW tank owners - with a warranty - then come back to me. OR - Call RedSea and ask them for the magnitude of the problem. No - I don't think the failure rate is anywhere near 5 percent. It was just a statement. I would say its far less then 1 percent - and I would also say - other tanks have the same problem

 

[MnFish1]

I will add to the "engineering" part of the comments from myself and others above with context to trimmed vs trimless.

Trim (top and bottom) in general, act to prevent seam separation by (in essence) clamping the seams together at their extents and in the case of the bottom, along the length. This should be obvious.

However what is also extremely important is that fact that the TOP trim (be it plastic or eurobrace) forms a partial (not ideal, but partial) torsion box out of the tank by transferring stress from loaded sections to a broader area, as well as stiffening the long axis of the panels and preventing the entire system from racking (putting stress on the seams).

A braced aquarium is many times stronger than an unbraced aquarium. Seams can't peel apart and stress on the seams is somewhat mitigated by the stiffness imparted by the frame.

OK - then go figure out a cantilevered building lol. There are numerous examples.

 

[Lebowski_]

I've got the perfect solution. I'm training my fish to detect potential seam problems because their lives depend on it so they have skin in the game. My life depends on it too because my wife will kill me surely if the tank leaks on the floor. So my fish are working hard checking every seam now for me 24/7. Next I'll have the cleaner shrimp learn how to use a glass seal patch kit too....problem solved.

This sounds eerily close to Children of Ruin by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Don't do it...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well - that would be hard - given his living situation. There is (as far as I know). evidence anywhere that RedSea tanks fail (percentage wise) - more than others. PS - I would never ever buy a used tank - and one major poster here did

Yes - FLW is dead - the point was that he (quite often) designed and [had] built structures that engineers warned were not sound. Falling water is falling (cantilever is bearing on first floor, materials failing) - among many other problems with his poorly engineered designs.

We are going in circles here. The "evidence" anecdotal or not is spread across this site and the internet in many dozens of conversations. I don't see anywhere close to that trend for any other brand currently or in the history of online communications.

 

[Troylee]

Putting a eurobrace on a rimless tank would not IMHO - make any difference in the bottom front seam failing? Or?

Makes a huge difference in deflection which stresses every joint on a tank not just the verticals.. I’ve built hundreds of tanks myself..

 

[BeanAnimal]

OK - then go figure out a cantilevered building lol. There are numerous examples.

I have no idea (honestly) what in the world that means.

Of course there are properly engineered cantilevered buildings. There are also poorly engineered examples or examples that that looked good on paper and failed due to real world inputs not foreseen or accounted for in the engineering.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Putting a eurobrace on a rimless tank would not IMHO - make any difference in the bottom front seam failing? Or?

Read the general engineering post above regarding trimmed vs trimmless tanks. There is a world of difference in how load and stress are transferred and relieved between the two systems.

Would a eurobrace abate the common failure mode that is demonstrated here? No clue.

 

[Troylee]

I have no idea (honestly) what in the world that means.

Of course there are properly engineered cantilevered buildings. There are also poorly engineered examples or examples that that looked good on paper and failed due to real world inputs not foreseen or accounted for in the engineering.

Not sure what he’s getting at either.. I build huge signs on the Vegas strip and cantilever hundreds of thousand of pounds on a pipe.. engineered correctly it works… have some failed? I’m sure but not to the extent of these tanks.. I’m beginning to think he might have stock in Red Sea haha!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Go ahead - calculate RedSea sales, calculate the number of NEW tank owners - with a warranty - then come back to me. OR - Call RedSea and ask them for the magnitude of the problem. No - I don't think the failure rate is anywhere near 5 percent. It was just a statement. I would say its far less then 1 percent - and I would also say - other tanks have the same problem

You can't hold your statistical opinion and conclusions WITHOUT the data and then demand my opinion/conclusion is only valid WITH the data.

The only "data" we have (mentioned several times) is that there are numerous other brands (many around for many decades) selling glass tanks of this size and no current or historical record of failure reports that rise to this frequency or level.

Again (mentioned several times) - WARRANTY has nothing to do with failure rates. NEW or USED - similar logic. If these fail USED at a higher rate than other brands, that would still indicate a design issue.

 

[brandon429]

Bro that's a sick job full of cad. Really neat.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Innovative Marine tanks using the APS metal stands have the entire tank supported from what I’ve seen. Their doors are flush to the stand instead of having doors flush to the tank…

for peace of mind, I prefer the IM metal stands that support all of the bottom including the front glass.

 

[MnFish1]

I have no idea (honestly) what in the world that means.

Of course there are properly engineered cantilevered buildings. There are also poorly engineered examples or examples that that looked good on paper and failed due to real world inputs not foreseen or accounted for in the engineering.

I do not think one of the biggest aquarium manufacturers in the world - is designing based on a coin flip. My guess is that they researched it some. lol. There are also multiple other rimless tank manufacturers. Now - I will give you the point - when I got the tank(s) was like hmmm. the edge is hanging over. RedSea says they have dealt with it. cantilevered glass

 

[MnFish1]

You can't hold your statistical opinion and conclusions WITHOUT the data and then demand my opinion/conclusion is only valid WITH the data.

The only "data" we have (mentioned several times) is that there are numerous other brands (many around for many decades) selling glass tanks of this size and no current or historical record of failure reports that rise to this frequency or level.

Again (mentioned several times) - WARRANTY has nothing to do with failure rates. NEW or USED - similar logic. If these fail USED at a higher rate than other brands, that would still indicate a design issue.

Actually I can - because I've done my homework. I've called RedSea. LOL - I've reported that I bought my tank - and that if there is a problem I will be asking for help. I've also talked to my LFS - the owners of which have a large version of the XXL in their living room. Come on.