Discussion in 'Reef Chemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley' started by hart24601, Feb 24, 2015.
Threads like this is why I love R2R. Learn something everyday. Thank you everyone
Great discussion to read, even if I can't contribute much!
Hey guys, I have read this thread for sure and kept back until everything calmed down a bit ;-) .
I realy understand the side of craig and also would like to explain a bit about our testing, as i feel the Time has arived.
There is nothing realy wrong written up in this thread, but this is also not a easy discussion at all.
I will try in my simple english to contribute to this thread as good as I can, hopfully it will work.
To the Artikle I need to say I like the way ICP-OES testing ( the difficulties ) are discribed , even if some difficulties are missing... and also the way it try to say donÂ´t overestimate ICP testing.
I just donÂ´t realy like the way the DATA is presented or/and assessed.
However I will try the next days to explain why we donÂ´t like to use acid for the general testing method... also you need to know that there are more methods we us for testing not only one, in some of them we use acid (HNO3).
I realy like to make the way we work understandable... but as a scientific thinking man, I can absolutly understand all points of view.
All the Best Ehsan
Is that Ok to you Randy and Craig ?
HAHA, same here mate , somehowe :smile:
Yes, that's a fine way to proceed.
That would be very good. I look forward to your responses.
I should be transparent about my objectives. There are three at this point:
1. To be assured that everyone in the chain of custody for these samples observes good lab practices and handles them with customary minimal precautions (lab coat, protective eyewear and gloves.)
2. To get Triton to accept acidified samples if they are declared as such.
3. That we all sing kumbaya around the campfire and that no lawyers are mentioned again.
These three things and a good science discussion would make me very happy.
What would make me happy is if the answers Triton provides are accurate. : D
But how do we know we are happy (about the accuracy)? 'cause you know, we have to be happy and know it to clap our hands.
That's where Ehsan should chime in.
Ok guys finaly I made it ... Chemist alsways get funny when they are inpatient hu...:xd:
Ok we are running our lab in a proffesional way Craig, including : fire extinguishers , eye wash , venting .... we use professional liquid handling tools , "suprapure" gardes of acids , Analytical Certified standards for ICP or IC ( NIST conform )... and for sure lab coat, protective eyewear and gloves and all kinds of needed signs and declaretions.... ( safity is very important, and german government is very strict in that point ).
Just to let you know all Pics on the webpage are original pictures of our facilities, not "faked buyed ones" . and even the hands on them are my hands : Galerie | Triton GmbH. :smile:
Declaration, in a case like that would be realy nice and professional ... but to be honest, we will never turn into a Acid testing Lab or test soils, oils , viniger or blood. we use our Laboratory for QM of our production ( also for some other companys ), QM of our rescources , and for the PRODUCT WATERTEST that we offer to the Publiic for NSW, artificial seawater ( saltmixes ) , Aquariumwater and for error detection reasons somtimes for freshwater ( tapwater or DI...). Also for sure for Research and Development.
We donÂ´t see a reason or a benefit to expand this for acid or anithing else in the moment. ( I need to admit I am not sure if I have understand you correctly in this point craig lets see if the discussion will help here )
If we can choose another song, also I would love to go Camping with you both :bigsmile: ( while singing all cameras will need to be turned of ).
All the Best Ehsan
First i would like to ask you Randy and Craig, do you have access to a ICP-OES of the newst generation approx 4 years old ( like ours ) without any restriction to use it ?
DonÂ´t get me wrong , I am asking because of the possiblility to experimentaly try some stuff that possibly will come up in the discussion , as we work very practical in that point.
Otherwise in some points we will only be able to go by scientific papers , wich in a practical way will not help to much.
In my opinion the Article is mixing up a lot of things that we should saperate from each other, to not let the discussion get caotic ( like the article ).
I can filter following questions out of all that have been said in the article and here :
1. Is TRITON ICP-OES testing PRODUCT good and helpfull for practical reefkeeping ( hobby or public aquaria ), is there a Value to the testing for this purpose. ( Fit for Purpose discussion ) by all informations we have right now ( Article and reality ) ?
2. Is TRITON ICP-OES testing PRODUCT good and helpfull for any other purpose like academic or scientific publications or a legal survey on court ... ?
3. How has TRITON managed to overcome the problems coming with ICP-OES testing of seawater and why is that possible as cheap or at all ?
4. Do the guys from TRITON know what they do ?
5. What does the DATA in the Article realy tell us and wich value does it have for the Reefkeeper, also how much weight does it have acording to the Fit for purpose discussion ?
6. Is there anything that can make the customers of TRITON feel more confident with the testing ? is there any need to feel more confident with TRITON ? what would be the best way to get this confidence ( from the viwe of the reefkeeper )?
7. How accurate / precise is TRITON TESTING PRODUCT and how accurate /precise, for wich purpose it need to be ?
8. Chemical geek questions like is Iodine testing effected by acid ? wich elements will be effected by acid ? in detail wich sideeffects will bacteria, (nano)particles, Matrix diviations/variations... have on the testing.
9. Is there any way that the TRITON TEST PRODUCT user wll be able to determine the accuracy / precision in his own personal TEST matrix ?
I think by going trough a planed discussion like that all of us would be able to contribute better, and the information for the audience will be more informativ.
Please feel free to add anything i could have missed.
I will chime in and start with the first question then.
sorry for the bad english.
All the best Ehsan
I would like to say something to your post.
I and many others acount TRITON as the most transparent company in our business , not only that we provenly have the abilitys we claim for reefkeeping and transparently show this, we also allow our costumers to test for the quality of our products by a TEST that we offer to them.
And in TRITON PRODUCTS case you also know what you buy as you can test afterwards fur the supliments.
We donÂ´t claim puting colors of corals in a bottle, and also let you the descission if you would like to dose anthing or not.
You will not find this in the business again.
We are not hiding any relevant informatons for our customers at all.
I am very proud of our work here, that realy leads aquaristik husbandry to another level and on the other side is affordable for everybody.
All the best Ehsan
Oh Sorry Randy and Craig, the ICP-OES should be a AXIAL system (EOP) and be equipped for high salt applications.
I am going to chime in here and there when I feel it necessary to add depth to something Ehsan mentioned. Some of his points are lost through translation. Having spent much time with him both in his lab and on Skype I heard and understand much of what he is saying and can therefore better assist in relaying some of the information to the hobbyist.
When looking at the results I just posted here from a reef hobbyist in the UK, you can see that his water looks quite good compared to the set points of Triton. The warning lamp indicator is there simply as an extra service to provide guidance to the aquarist on what action he or she might want to take to correct their strong deviations. If you look at the data, many of the trace elements tested were either above or below the set point but Triton does not recommend taking action. As Ehsan stated, one could say that 60-70 percent of what Triton is used for is spotting gross problems in people's water. (buildups of certain macro or trace elements).
Sorry- pics were small. I will try uploading larger size
How do i get my water tested by triton labs? I cant seem to find their website
You can purchase tests at triton-us.com or at uniquecorals.com
Thank you for your response, especially given the language barrier (I honestly wish I spoke German (And Thai!), after seeing some of those wonderful tanks).
Given what is available today, in terms of group testing, I do believe what Triton charges, and what Triton offers as a follow-through, is not only complete but easily understood (A boon to both veteran and new reefers). I honestly do not want to discourage people from using Triton's services, and I would be a hypocrite to suggest otherwise as I believe I've obtained gainful knowledge from using Triton's testing services twice in the last few months.
To clear up my own confusion of my post: I tend to be very accepting of what I am told/read, even by those that are behind whatever is said/done. I often have to remind myself to at least look outside and see what others say, but more importantly I am no scientist (In reference to this post, not a chemist), and often rely on other experts in the field to help form my own opinion (Like so many of us have to do). I tend to be pretty bias with those experts that I am familiar with (Rich Ross, Randy Holmes-Farley, and Craig Bingman in this case). If they show some suspicion or unanswered thoughts on something, I usually jump on their boat as I've often used their shared knowledge to further my own reefing endeavors.
In all, I hope this discussion and subsequent result makes both sides happy (Let alone satisfied). Either way, it'll be a positive to this Hobby as a whole.
I don't believe his points were necessarily lost in translation. The above discussion is lost in translation (Chemistry, I am worse at it than German), and I think the confusion comes from others outside the realm of understanding chemistry trying to interpret what is being discussed. In all, I think many of us are doing what I replied to Eshan about... we see that the experts (That we know or are familiar with) are questioning something.. so we hit the pause button and want to know more... but are now hesitant to promote something until all parties are satisfied.
I honestly don't believe most people sense a dishonesty from Triton, just a lack of distributed knowledge that we (Common hobbyists) can't translate and make use of. We only know this because of the aforementioned article and the discussion between the two heavyweights above. I, personally, find Eshan to be a good person, not shady. Striking a balance between business operations and transparency, etc is nothing easy, and I see that.
As I said above, I hope this all works out and later re-translated so the rest of us commoners (Read: Non-chemists!) understand it all! :lol:
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