Results of higher N03/P04

[kevensquint]

Hi , so I design, build and maintain reef tanks in Montreal. I've been in this hobby for 35 years. I basically no longer test organics but go with experience and visual cues to ajuster for that. I have heard in the past few years the idea of low N03/P04 is becoming no longer the ideal goal. Well U decided to check one of my best tanks out of curiosity. It measures N03 25ppm and P04 1.0 ppm using the salifert N03 and Hanna ULPhos.
I need to frag the SPS weekly and at the same time corals like hammer and Goniopora are growing great as well.

If I found things to get looking off, I would probably ajust to 15ppm N03 and 0.07 P04. But just goes to show we think we're sure of things for years even and turns out it's just a rumor.
A side note, I'm quite sure in this tank with big predators , without the chaeto fuge, plenty of turbo snails and 4 tangs algae would take over. So keep that in mind, it's a very important factor with these levels.

 

[KrisReef]

Hi , so I design, build and maintain reef tanks in Montreal. I've been in this hobby for 35 years. I basically no longer test organics but go with experience and visual cues to ajuster for that. I have heard in the past few years the idea of low N03/P04 is becoming no longer the ideal goal. Well U decided to check one of my best tanks out of curiosity. It measures N03 25ppm and P04 1.0 ppm using the salifert N03 and Hanna ULPhos.
I need to frag the SPS weekly and at the same time corals like hammer and Goniopora are growing great as well.

If I found things to get looking off, I would probably ajust to 15ppm N03 and 0.07 P04. But just goes to show we think we're sure of things for years even and turns out it's just a rumor.
A side note, I'm quite sure in this tank with big predators , without the chaeto fuge, plenty of turbo snails and 4 tangs algae would take over. So keep that in mind, it's a very important factor with these levels.

Hanna Meters would love to have your eyes in a Checker they could sell to us.
Nice tanks and post!

 

[RiftRaftReefing]

Awesome so from what I’ve read it’s about ratios not exact numbers

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. I've been in this hobby for 35 years. I basically no longer test organics but go with experience and visual cues to ajuster for that. I

Just a comment on that statement. I presume you do not really mean organics, but mean nutrients. Almost no one has the capability to measure organics at home.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Awesome so from what I’ve read it’s about ratios not exact numbers

IMO, that’s not true. Absolute numbers are far more important than ratios.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are opinions all around on whether high nutrient levels are an issue or not. We discuss it in detail here:

Are elevated nutrients a problem, or not?

Elevated nutrients are one of the most talked about issues in reefkeeping, with folks on all sides of the issue. There is, however, no simple answer to the title question (IMO). I thought I'd start a thread for a wide ranging discussion of this issue, and to gather many of the bits of data and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[kevensquint]

Hello Randy , yes I mean nutrients . My bad. Although the point I'm suggesting is simply the idea of very low N03 and P04 at least on the tank in question with pictures shows all corals healthy, colorful and I confirm fast growing at previously thought of as "too high" levels of N03 and P04. No doubt, other things will have an effect on the final results. For example I keep this tank with Alk 7.8 dkh, Ca 450 ppm and Mg at 1400 ppm. Would it look like this with for example Alk at 10 DKH maybe
..but I don't know. So as per any post suggesting a successful idea. It's worth considering but not an end all declaration.

 

[carbondave]

Quick question: you say that you're running at 25 ppm NO3 and 1.0 ppm PO4 but that if things looked off you would move to 15 and 0.07, respectively. So you would adjust NO3 by 40% but PO4 by 93%?

 

[kevensquint]

From experience these are safe values. Good "everything will be fine" levels . I'm not caring about ratios just from experience what is fine. I was a bit surprised what I measured today, but also happy to see we can chill out with the GFO and big water changes when those nutrients increase. There must be an upper level that things go bad at. Apparently this tank is fine at 25 ppm and 1ppm. I'll tell you what tho. If you try to aim at a specific ratio, like the Redfield. Good luck , it will be a constant effort of time and testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hello Randy , yes I mean nutrients . My bad. Although the point I'm suggesting is simply the idea of very low N03 and P04 at least on the tank in question with pictures shows all corals healthy, colorful and I confirm fast growing at previously thought of as "too high" levels of N03 and P04. No doubt, other things will have an effect on the final results. For example I keep this tank with Alk 7.8 dkh, Ca 450 ppm and Mg at 1400 ppm. Would it look like this with for example Alk at 10 DKH maybe
..but I don't know. So as per any post suggesting a successful idea. It's worth considering but not an end all declaration.

You’ll see in the thread I posted that many tanks thrive with high nutrients.

 

[RiftRaftReefing]

IMO, that’s not true. Absolute numbers are far more important than ratios.

So your saying we should chase numbers?

 

[RiftRaftReefing]

You’ll see in the thread I posted that many tanks thrive with high nutrients.

That’s why many people believe it doesn’t matter how high they go as long as the ratio is right like 100:1 is an almost proven ratio 10ppm no3 .01 ppm p03 theoretically you can run this no3 100ppm to po3 .1

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So your saying we should chase numbers?

Of course. You just need to decide which parameters and which range of values are optimal for your system. That's the whole name of the game of reef aquarium husbandry in the chemical sense.

Much better than chasing ratios, which IMO, makes no sense. Personally, I think ratios as level targets have no utility to aquarists, and are readily misleading.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That’s why many people believe it doesn’t matter how high they go as long as the ratio is right like 100:1 is an almost proven ratio 10ppm no3 .01 ppm p03 theoretically you can run this no3 100ppm to po3 .1

People make all sorts of wrong assumptions and conclusions. The ratio is certainly not proven to be OK for all absolute levels.

Ratios are obviously flawed, since one can have them too high or too low and still have that golden ratio.

If you target appropriate absolute levels, then the ratio will ways be OK. The reverse is not true.

Nothing in reefkeeping science says the ratio needs to be anything in particular. When nutrients are elevated, they are typically elevated in that ratio because foods add nutrients in a ratio similar to that.

 

[RiftRaftReefing]

People make all sorts of wrong assumptions and conclusions. The ratio is certainly not proven to be OK for all absolute levels.

Ratios are obviously flawed, since one can have them too high or too low and still have that golden ratio.

If you target appropriate absolute levels, then the ratio will ways be OK. The reverse is not true.

Nothing in reefkeeping science says the ratio needs to be anything in particular. When nutrients are elevated, they are typically elevated in that ratio because foods add nutrients in a ratio similar to that.

Ok so I totally agree that ratios are definitely flawed… to a point lol. Only because I’ve definitely noticed in my own experience that when no3 drops below po4 you will definitely run into problems same goes for both dropping below 0 on are test kits. So I guess what I’m wondering is, that we should just keep no3 higher then po4 and stable this seems to be a widely agreed upon consensus in the in the community.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok so I totally agree that ratios are definitely flawed… to a point lol. Only because I’ve definitely noticed in my own experience that when no3 drops below po4 you will definitely run into problems same goes for both dropping below 0 on are test kits. So I guess what I’m wondering is, that we should just keep no3 higher then po4 and stable this seems to be a widely agreed upon consensus in the in the community.

If you elect a desirable range for yourself, such as 2-10 ppm nitrate and 0.02 to 0.1 ppm phosphate, which many people would think is fine, then phosphate is never higher than nitrate, but the ratio varies by a factor of 25 from highest to lowest.

 

[Spare time]

Awesome so from what I’ve read it’s about ratios not exact numbers

Its about recommended ranges, not ratios. The ratio is irrelevant.

 

[Dburr1014]

Ok so I totally agree that ratios are definitely flawed… to a point lol. Only because I’ve definitely noticed in my own experience that when no3 drops below po4 you will definitely run into problems same goes for both dropping below 0 on are test kits. So I guess what I’m wondering is, that we should just keep no3 higher then po4 and stable this seems to be a widely agreed upon consensus in the in the community.

Every tank is different. Need to FIND YOUR sweet spot. Though, I'm not trying to run it this way, it just happens to run this way.

 

[RiftRaftReefing]

Every tank is different. Need to FIND YOUR sweet spot. Though, I'm not trying to run it this way, it just happens to run this way.

Very interesting, would you consider that due to you high coral volume that your coral is consuming no3 faster then it’s being added to the tank? or was the tank always running like this? Would you ever consider dosing no3 and see if you get positive results?

 

[Troylee]

Every tank is different. Need to FIND YOUR sweet spot. Though, I'm not trying to run it this way, it just happens to run this way.

Mines the opposite lol…if it works it works! I use reef roids and I still bottom out po4. My alk runs high thou..